D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[AnotherGuy]

~looks at 20 years of writing career~

I think I got that, chief. Made some mistakes along the way and lived up to my ignorance too it instead of accusing people of looking to be offended.

Would you like me to expound on the cultural impact of wings and hollow bones on the hailene?

The racial trauma of a people transformed by deific action among the minotaurs?

How the miare catfolk have adapted to cleave to, break or manipulate the stereotypes of them?

The positive discrimination of lasconti spiderfolk and its impact on them?

My own portrayal of mixed race people both contemporary human and fictional species?

Maybe the societal impact of literal superpowers and how social action changes nations?

Allegory of indigenous people without making use of the magical native of 'noble savage' tropes?

The research involved in portraying people of religions, races and sexualities different than my own?

I can do this all day.

You haven't done anything. Two lines do not a write up make.

 

[AnotherGuy]

So you don't realize that using racist terminology is worse than not using racist terminology?

No.

I'm not so familiar with VtM, but vampires talking about other vampires is not the same as one species talking about the other species.

Why? It's an active roleplaying game.

I take it you're not familiar with the Mark of Ham?

Are you referring to the Bible?

I have played half-orcs. And half-elves. But not in worlds where there was automatic racism against them. There was still plenty of conflict because, y'know, the DMs were capable of creating conflicts that didn't revolve around bigotry.

One can easily create much conflict between various species, the PHB doesn't even touch on the elf-otc relationship right?

 

[AnotherGuy]

No, you haven't said why it's cool. You've said it creates conflict. But there are a lot of ways to create conflict in an RPG and you haven't said why racism is somehow better than any of the hundreds or thousands of other ways.

1. I have discussed other conflicts which were provided as an example upthread, it might have been a reply to Chaosmancer. They were so generic that they told us nothing of the race itself.
2. I have mentioned Orcs and Elves are unique in that they have
a) Deities in conflict
b) The numerous differences between them (pretty vs "ugly", graceful vs brute, long life span vs short life span, weakness vs strength...etc) can be used in a variety of ways, some of which I touched on upthread.
c) The racial conflict may create other challenges to other species within the world
d) How are orc and elf are within the same party? Cool backstory created.

Like I've said in previous post, none of this is touched on the 5e PHB. So players are welcome to ignore it.

I've leaned into it in my games with one of the elven characters in that an orc warlock appears the only one to help the elf with his current problem with amnesia and this puts him at odds with the party who would likely slay the warlock. Having discussed it here over so many pages - I may explore the orc and elf relationship more to see where the player takes it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You haven't done anything. Two lines do not a write up make.

18 published books (19 if you count the one some Amazon scammer put my name on), two lines, what's the difference, right?

No. Seriously, what are you talking about two lines?

 

[Hussar]

No.

This is what I was referring to when I said we are fundamentally not speaking the same language.

 

[Bedrockgames]

No, you haven't. Because whenever any of us have asked for any sort of concrete examples or evidence, you've refused. I mean, what does that say about your argument that you refuse to support it in any way?

Re-read the post you are responding to

I am entirely comfortable with my argument. I think people who see what is going on, understand, and I have explained to you and the other two posters asking for examples, why I won't provide any to you.

 

[Bedrockgames]

You still have free expression. As I said, you can write whatever you want. It's quite likely that anybody who is currently writing for WotC can also write a book and publish it on the side and have it contain what they want it to. I don't believe any of them are under "no compete" clauses that would forbid such a thing.

No I don't, and neither do the people working at WOTC if they want to keep doing so.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Are you referring to the Bible?

This is one where I can see how people would be discomforted by the resemblance to the way the Curse of Ham has been used. This is one where I think it does walk a fine line, because it is getting into interesting ideas of a species that has this darkness baked into its spirit, at the very least has an anger response that is radically different from humans, and that can be interesting. But it can also get into very dark territory and I can see how someone might see it in the game and wonder if the Curse of Ham was something that inspired it. I think you can do stuff like this in a setting, but I also think it's a valid concern to respond to. In one of my own settings the elves were created as slaves for the Ogres originally (that is why they are immortal).I thought it worked, it wasn't invoking any kind of real world racial issues or slavery in my mind but was more based on mythic ideas about elves, humans, ogres, etc all being created by different gods and having fundamentally different natures.

But I get the concern. In real history this was one of the major justifications for slavery in the US---the view that black people were descendants of Ham who had been cursed to servitude). I don't think this is as wildly out of left field as "half" is problematic or "killing things and taking their stuff is a colonialist trope". This is something where you are playing with mythic imagery, and it is easy to see how some people will see that connection.

Personally I think the Mark of Gruumsh is more about having the difference between these beings really matter and also trying to emulate something like the Warf trope (not saying it was specifically Warf being modeled but it does seem made to make that kind of characters: and I think that sort of character is entirely fine). This is one though where I think having a discussion about it is definitely a lot more reasonable than many of the other criticisms of D&D that have taken hold.

The way I would put it is when I made my elves as slaves, I had the thought "I hope people don't misunderstand this" and it wasn't because I thought people who did would be unreasonable. So I would have been happy to clarify my intentions to people with that one. But there are other criticisms where your thought is more "I think people might misunderstand this even though its pretty clear I am not doing anything wrong here", and that is the thought in designers heads I am more concerned about. You make the mark of Gruumsh in a game, fair enough, the Curse of Ham was a thing that was used to explain slavery, I can see a line to it, so I would anticipate responding to any concerns raised (I could even see a writer saying, maybe its too close so I won't do it).

For me it is more about do you need to have a lesson on an entire hermeneutic before you read something and see there is a problem with it, or can you just go in without that and see the issue. If the latter, then, even if it's not what the writer was intending, it's at least a criticism I can understand. This is why the 'going into dungeons and taking things from goblins is a colonialist trope' is so egregious. You need a pretty thorough education in colonialism and literary criticism to even get there in the first place (not a literal college degree education but someone has to explain these concepts to you). Mark of Gruumsh, anyone familiar with slave history in the US (and most Americans are) would at least know what is being referenced when someone raises the concern----though I would qualify that by saying there probably are a larger number of people who don't know about that use of the Curse of Ham than folks may realize.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Such as? I'm curious to see these things. I'm sure there are left-wing bigots as well, but I haven't encountered any who are against interracial marriage.

to be honest I am very wary to answer this question for the same reason I am wary about answering questions asked by you and the other two posters, especially given it’s a personal issue. But the first time I ever encountered anyone from the left suggesting our relationship could be a problem was an instructor in a media course I took in 2006, and to be clear, I think she was a good person and found her to be an an interesting person. This was the first time I heard it suggested that if a white man dated a woman outside his own race, she felt it was a colonialist impulse to ‘explore the exotic’. Then I encountered the idea that an Asian woman or a black woman in a relationship with a white guy, is somehow endorsing or seeking benefits of ‘white supremacy’. I’ve even seen similar arguments for black men dating Asian women or white women. Since then I encountered similar ideas, including that Asian women should date Asian men, that black men should date black women, etc.

And you can also sense the mood in the room. I used to never be reluctant to say my wife is Asian or my wife is Thai. But when I am in an environment that seems more left leaning I am definitely more on guard because you are much more likely in that environment to get ‘your one of those guys’ reactions (especially if you have interest in Asian cultures or media). And it feels like the language you and the other person use us also much more monitored (you just have more concern about being misunderstood). You just feel more scrutinized and uncomfortable

And not saying it doesn’t happen from the other direction. I have certainly heard some terrible remarks I don’t even want to repeat here. That is something we encounter less these days, but it does still occasionally re-emerge (and I live north of Boston so interracial marriages are pretty common here). But I will say I expect it more and more from people who I always thought shared my attitude on politics, race and society. And I think it tends to come from a very academic view of racial relations. Now to be clear it isn’t from everyone. I think most people on the left are very supportive. But it does exist

The problem with this is no one wants their relationship under that kind of microscope. People can’t assume they know our entire story of our relationship dynamic based on our races. Also the longer you are with someone the less any cultural differences even enter your minds. People should be able to be with who they love, without any judgment.

Edited for typos

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why does your personal preference need to be in the core books, being presented to pre-teens? Why can't you have your edgy racism game at home, where you can know the people involved and their comfort levels?

I already conceded the core books (twice) above. I still think it should be ok for a published campaign setting.