D&D 5E (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Chaosmancer]

I'm currently watching a TV show on Prime I missed while it was airing on cable. It was cancelled prematurely, so maybe it doesn't have many fans, but I'm enjoying it so far.

The show is called Grimm. For those unaware, there are supernatural creatures on the show called Wesen that most of the time just look like humans, but they have a hidden "monster" side to them they can bring out that usually gives them special abilities. There are many kinds depicted on the show, but most of them are depicted just as people. The main character is a cop, so more often than not deals with the bad ones, but they usually also show some good (or morally gray) ones of the same variety of Wesen. However, some of the episodes do specify that some of these creatures, by their very natures, are essentially all bad (or at least not good).

I'm only half way through the show, but so far they don't show any bigotry between humans. However, they do show hatred between some of the types of Wesen, due to past beef/history, but also because some of them eat the other ones. None of them are meant to be stand-ins for any real world ethnicity, but yes the show does utilize the "fantastic racism" trope.

I know that some in this thread said that bigotry can work in other mediums, but hypothetically if an RPG was created for those wanting to play in the world as depicted on Grimm. I would expect the game rules to mention that some Wesen have a natural dislike for other kinds, and that some of the varieties of them (like those that regularly eat people) would not be playable, and only be depicted in villain roles. Removing those elements would be a problem for me as then it's not really the same world anymore.

Now D&D is different in that it's not based on a TV show (or movie, book, comic, etc.) and you can make the world however you wish, but having dislike or hatred between groups of made up creatures doesn't have to be problematic, nor does creatures with an inherently villainous nature have to be problematic.

So, it would be hard to speak on this specifically without watching the show. But I have some general thoughts.


Many times there are groups of fantasy creatures that are obligate carnivores. However, being an obligate carnivore does not mean that you are required to eat people. Now, if the Wesen in the game were presented as only villains because they were born with a need to eat humans... yeah, I'd say that's bad and dumb. If it is that they must eat meat, and some groups CHOOSE to eat humans. Then it is fine.

As for the "don't like other types of Wesen" there is a finer line here. You mention it is because of past beef, and that can be okay. For example, the Vampires and Werewolves often don't like each other because they have been at war for so long. It isn't innate to them, it isn't because of biology, it is because of war. And that can be fine, even if they are kind fo vague on why the war started. But it does get a little... strained, if it is EVERY vampire and EVERY werewolf... because that makes their communities monoliths. And that can be really weird.

Like, if all Dog Wesen hate all Cat Wesen because they are often at war... are we really saying a secret society of two different types of beings, across the entire globe, all had the same exact political conflict? So, if I was to be designing a game like this, I would do what the show does, and I would limit the setting. We are only worried about this region and these power structures, not stating or even heavily implying anything beyond those borders. And part of that is because players are going to ask, they are going to look to interact with the setting and the lore, and things like a single council that rules the entire world get them questioning things.


And I would also point out, that inherently villainous mindflayers have been fine for most everyone. They work as "always evil" because of how their nature interacts. They are parasites, they are a hive mind, they are obligate hunters of sapient brains. They work as always evil villains. And details like that matter. For example, if you want a "these two groups have long been at war" but the groups are made of people who randomly mutate instead of being born into the culture.... that doesn't work. Because the war doesn't make sense.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I also said it is a tool numerous times.
And you are old enough to understand that you could still includes other areas of conflict in option 1 such as - greed, natural disasters, fighting over land and all that other generic conflict that you had raised earlier.

So, you engaged in hyperbole, didn't mean what you said, then accuse ME of hyperbole (because I have a "failing argument") when I... just report what you said.

So, I didn't engage in hyperbole. I guess that is good since according to you, engaging in hyperbole is the sign of a failing argument.

 

[Chaosmancer]

this isn’t even remotely close to what I was saying

No, you kept it more generic, but since again, we are just talking about removing racism from things, that is the context of your "it is possible to get so fixated on a message, you make an overly idealized character". And frankly, the entire main focus of your slippery slope argument.

I didn’t mean you aren’t paying attention. I just meant I believe most people would agree and acknowledge this is going on

And yet most people on this thread don't agree with you, and keep asking you what you are talking about. So your belief seems to be false. So, again, can you give me some public statements from some movies or TV shows, recently within the past 5 years, that shows a chilling effect that prevented good material from being made? Can you actually do this and show where we should be paying attention to see this horrible trend you have seen?

 

[Chaosmancer]

No, you haven't said why it's cool. You've said it creates conflict. But there are a lot of ways to create conflict in an RPG and you haven't said why racism is somehow better than any of the hundreds or thousands of other ways.

But don't you understand Faolyn, it is a tool. And you should never get rid of any tool. Why, some person might want that in their personal toolbox, so it needs to come pre-packaged so everyone is forced to actively remove it if they don't want it.

 

[Guest 85555]

No, you kept it more generic, but since again, we are just talking about removing racism from things, that is the context of your "it is possible to get so fixated on a message, you make an overly idealized character". And frankly, the entire main focus of your slippery slope argument.

Again not what I meant when I said overly idealized

And yet most people on this thread don't agree with you, and keep asking you what you are talking about.

This is don’t think is true. But even if it were true thread isn’t most people. Obviously we are in late stages in this thread but when I first started posting these points they recurved a lot of likes. Having a few dedicated posters to challenging my argument doesn’t equal most people in the thread disagreeing with me

 

[Faolyn]

I am an American. Freedom of speech Abd free expression are broader principles. The first amendment specifically protects against government censorship but the free speech movement and advocates of free expression are concerned about other forms of restriction like corporate censorship, efforts to get publishers to take down or change books, etc

You still have free expression. As I said, you can write whatever you want. It's quite likely that anybody who is currently writing for WotC can also write a book and publish it on the side and have it contain what they want it to. I don't believe any of them are under no compete clauses that would forbid such a thing. If they're feeling so restricted by not being able to rely on racism, they have plenty of outlets.

So... how many of these writers you're so worried about have actually written side books filled with slavery and racism and all those things that you claim are so important? Any of them?

I notice you didn't reply to my other points.

 

[Guest 85555]

I notice you didn't reply to my other points.

Yes I haven't. I haven't replied to similar questions by the other two posters. I explained why I am not responding to those.

 

[Faolyn]

I am an American. Freedom of speech Abd free expression are broader principles. The first amendment specifically protects against government censorship but the free speech movement and advocates of free expression are concerned about other forms of restriction like corporate censorship, efforts to get publishers to take down or change books, etc

You still have free expression. As I said, you can write whatever you want. It's quite likely that anybody who is currently writing for WotC can also write a book and publish it on the side and have it contain what they want it to. I don't believe any of them are under "no compete" clauses that would forbid such a thing.

So... how many of these writers you're so worried about have actually written these books?

Yes I haven't. I haven't replied to similar questions by the other two posters. I explained why I am not responding to those.

No, you haven't. Because whenever any of us have asked for any sort of concrete examples or evidence, you've refused. I mean, what does that say about your argument that you refuse to support it in any way?

Maybe you should switch your argument from "this is bad for these really serious and objective reasons I won't show you" to "because I prefer it the old way."

 

[Hussar]

Half-elves as a race entry in the 2014 PH are a unique mechanic, even if the actual differences aren't enormous.

But, they are still there in the new PHB as well. True, not as a separate entry, but, they are still there.

 

[Hussar]

So please by all means create something without drawing any parallels (for offense) and it must be more than just a skin.

See:

Humans in 5e D&D.

Most of the races in 5e D&D are fine really. While there are some rough spots, like some of those "how race x feels about race y" which could probably get stuffed into the circular file, by and large, there's no problem. Gnomes AFAIK, don't have any problems. Dragonborn descriptions don't parallel any real world bigotry AFAIK. Heck, even the Forgotten Realms version of Dragonborn where they all violently hate dragons because of generations of slavery isn't a terrible take. After all, Dragonborn aren't depicted as brutish, violent and tribal.

There are a million race descriptions that DON'T rely on racist language.