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D&D (2024) Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?

Since the general answer to my notes about range 600 combats (which I have noted as a problem) has been "well I don't have fights at those ranges", it seems there is absolutely a problem. But what's great is....the solution will not even hurt the vast majority of players.

If you have had 600 ft combats and hate it, then nerfing the range will be great for you. And if you never have fights at those ranges, you won't even notice. Seems like a complete win/win to me.
The thread has moved on, but I wanted to get to this. Firstly, if the response is "well I don't have fights at those ranges", that is not and indication that "there is absolutely a problem." It is a neutral point. If people aren't doing a thing, we do not know if changing the rules around doing the thing would make them start doing the thing or not (much less whether it was the existing rules that caused them not to do the thing).
Beyond that, we are clearly trying to answer different questions. I'm trying to explain why I think the rules are the way they are, and why they have not been changed. You are clearly arguing for a change in the rules to address a perceived problem. Towards that, I pretty much land here:
I fully support reducing those long ranges, either officially in the next update or unofficially by any DM who wants to make the change. Great idea! Do it.
As in, great, good, do your thing, knock your bad self out, etc. I don't see this as a major problem in games I've witnessed, nor does the presence of a rule which might be 'unrealistic' or incentivizing specific playstyles* overly bother me, but if you care passionately about it, go right ahead -- advocate for a rules change for the next version of the game, make the changes at your own table.
*5e's ruleset which favors ranged builds bothers me more in that there are few downsides to going Dex-based (you can still melee well, while Str-based characters suffer when switching to ranged), the stat gets used for everything else as well, and Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter eliminates most constraints that limited such builds in other editions.
4e its 200 feet.
As Hussar pointed out, this is yards
Also found this old 1e basic box set book, and the longbow is..... 210 feet. (Page B27 if you want to check yourself). The crossbow is interestingly enough the longest range there at 240 feet.
And moving to 2nd edition (page 146)
Longbow is.....210 feet, 240 for the crossbow. And technically those are for flight arrows, used for hunting. the book notes that the "arrows used for war" have a range of 170.
Chainmail, oD&D, AD&D (1&2), and all of the basic-classic line have outdoor missile ranges in yards. The Basic books from J. Eric Holmes, Thomas Moldvay, and Frank Mentzer do list ranges in feet, but that is because the basic books are intended for levels 1-3 and for dungeon-crawling exclusively. Those versions of the basic-classic line with Expert sets include clarification like (form the Cook Expert Set, p.X19) "Unlike dungeons, the basic measure of distance in the wilderness is yards instead of feet. ... Missile and spell ranges are also read as yards in the wilderness."
Now this isn't every single slice of old school dnd, but it seems that the "insane bow ranges" didn't start until 3rd edition, was corrected back in 4e to old school values, and then pushed back in 5e.
This is pretty much not the case. This was my central point from the beginning. Bows have had ranges of ~600' since 1974 when Chainmail came out. It made more sense there--it was a game of massed formations, and the standard measurement increment was 1"=10yd. It was ported into D&D unchanged, and has been carried through without adjustment undoubtedly because (IMO) no one has decided it was important enough to alter (certainly not worth any blowback for changing it that might occur). 3rd edition did change something*, but it was the standardization of 5' square as the combat measurement unit of choice.
*3rd and later editions have also altered other factors of archery combat, making it easier to be specifically-archery-focused (as opposed to all warriors being switch-hitters).
 

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Looking at the link you provided, I believe you made a mistake. The top of the chart states that the ranges are in yards, not in feet. So, a flight arrow goes 210 yards and a sheaf arrow does 170.
Looking at the 1e link....no it clearly says: "RANGES (in feet):"

However, it looks like for the 2e link you are correct, that is in yards. So the standard range for a war bow in 2e is 510 feet.

For 4e, the longbow is 40 squares, which is 200 feet, I've doublechecked.
 
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And to anyone who has used a bow, such a limitation is immersion-breaking.
And to anyone who has used a bow to actually try and hit moving targets, hitting it at 600 feet is immersion breaking, that is BEYOND RIDICULOUS.

There is a huge difference between "hey look if I pull this bow back really hard and don't really care what I hit I can make the arrow go 600 feet" and "I can hit a moving target at 600 feet". And of course it just gets sillier and sillier once you add in armor and the fact that people are shooting back at you.

The problem is we are trying to combine army volley fire (which has no accuracy at all, just a bunch of archers all shooting at a certain angle, hoping that the hundreds of arrows fired will hit something), and hunting type archery (which is more dnd combat with possible moving targets, having to deal with terrain and conditions, etc).

Perhaps the issue is more around the penalty. If shooting past 150 feet was like a -10 or -15 or something, ok sure its a crazy hard shot that you have no business making, but maybe you get lucky. Unfortuantely the "effective -5" of disadvantage is not enough to construe that.
 

I think its also pretty telling that the Olympic archery competitions are only at 230 feet.

So the absolute best archers in existence, using the best equipment in existence. Able to take their time and make shots slowly and carefully against static targets, often indoors ignoring any weather conditions, still aren't shooting past 230 feet.

Long distance archery that is anything but mass volley fire is a complete myth....it doesn't exist, it never existed.
 

Which is why I maintain the DM shouldn’t put encounters on large featureless plains unless they are intentionally doing so to create a puzzle situation that needs to be solved differently. To shake things up, which is always a good thing to do once in awhile.

Even changing bows to a max of 200’ (as @Stalker0 suggests) wouldn’t solve that issue if both sides want to turn it into a longbow fight. The melee characters will still have to dash at least three rounds, and the spellcasters nearly as much. So unless you want to nerf bows down to 100’ or less, the problem isn’t the weapons.
I agree.

Of course GMs can and should improvise encounter distance and terrain in the absence of something useful from the rulebooks.

I think many DMs overshoot when correcting the problem @tetrasodium identifies by having enemies pop up in the same room 20 feet away with no warning. I find this equally frustrating sometimes but I recognize that it’s a response to players trivializing fights by having 3 rounds of ranged combat to shred the foe.
 

4e its 200 feet.
Not familiar with 4e.
Also found this old 1e basic box set book, and the longbow is..... 210 feet. (Page B27 if you want to check yourself). The crossbow is interestingly enough the longest range there at 240 feet.
In B/X, BECMI, and 1e indoor ranges are measured in feet while outdoor ranges are measured in yards. See the Expert Set (B/X Expert page 19, BECMI Expert page 20) and 1e PHB (page 39).


And moving to 2nd edition (page 146)

Longbow is.....210 feet, 240 for the crossbow. And technically those are for flight arrows, used for hunting. the book notes that the "arrows used for war" have a range of 170.
Those ranges are clearly marked as yards.

Now this isn't every single slice of old school dnd, but it seems that the "insane bow ranges" didn't start until 3rd edition, was corrected back in 4e to old school values, and then pushed back in 5e.
Incorrect, see above.
 

Not familiar with 4e.

In B/X, BECMI, and 1e indoor ranges are measured in feet while outdoor ranges are measured in yards. See the Expert Set (B/X Expert page 19, BECMI Expert page 20) and 1e PHB (page 39).


Those ranges are clearly marked as yards.


Incorrect, see above.
I have updated my original post with the corrected information.
 

The problem is we are trying to combine army volley fire (which has no accuracy at all, just a bunch of archers all shooting at a certain angle, hoping that the hundreds of arrows fired will hit something), and hunting type archery (which is more dnd combat with possible moving targets, having to deal with terrain and conditions, etc).

That's fair, but I think armies and sieges and the like are pretty archetypical elements of D&D. And if we look at ways that pcs are so much better than real world humans, I think allowing them a decent chance at landing a long range shot with a bow is far less egregious than letting them walk away from a 100' fall without even being seriously wounded. And in a setting with any kind of magical scholarship, I can't see longer range/siege magic not develop eventually.

YMMV.
 

That's fair, but I think armies and sieges and the like are pretty archetypical elements of D&D. And if we look at ways that pcs are so much better than real world humans, I think allowing them a decent chance at landing a long range shot with a bow is far less egregious than letting them walk away from a 100' fall without even being seriously wounded. And in a setting with any kind of magical scholarship, I can't see longer range/siege magic not develop eventually.

YMMV.
Yeah, by any reasonable standard even mid-tier martial PCs are probably already beyond olympic-athlete levels of prowess, and magical weapons would outperform even modern-day equivalents.
 

If the argument is: Bow ranges should be reduced so that they better reflect reality then I'm all for it.

If the argument is: Bow ranges are difficult to balance... skill issue.
 

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