D&D (2024) They butchered the warlock in the new packet

[mellored]

Ditch Hex as a damage booster and make it something that actually debuffs the target in a meaningful way outside of grapple/shoves.

I would also be cool with that.

Especially since one of those debuffs could be "take more damage".

 

[Neonchameleon]

Does it, though? You'll actually be able to cast spells more often instead of just spamming Eldritch Blast every round!

Only if you want your spells to be basically no better than an Eldritch Blast/Hex combo.

Seriously, Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast and Hex is about two points off the damage of a first level spell at the point when you can only cast first level spells. And a two beam Eldritch Blast backed with a stat of 18 (after the level 4 ASI) with a first level slot on Hex does more damage than Scorching Ray.

Under the old system you were spamming Eldritch Blast because you wanted to preserve the high level slots. Under the new system you're spamming Eldritch Blast before level 9 because Eldritch Blast is on a level with the best spells you can cast for the first 8 levels.

I don't see "The Warlock has too few things that are better than Eldritch Blast to do in combat so what if we took everything better than Eldritch Blast before level 9 away and gave lots of things worse than Eldritch Blast?" to be any sort of improvement. At least the old way you sometimes got choices that were better than Eldritch Blast.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Only if you want your spells to be basically no better than an Eldritch Blast/Hex combo.

Seriously, Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast and Hex is about two points off the damage of a first level spell at the point when you can only cast first level spells. And a two beam Eldritch Blast backed with a stat of 18 (after the level 4 ASI) with a first level slot on Hex does more damage than Scorching Ray.

Under the old system you were spamming Eldritch Blast because you wanted to preserve the high level slots. Under the new system you're spamming Eldritch Blast before level 9 because Eldritch Blast is on a level with the best spells you can cast for the first 8 levels.

I don't see "The Warlock has too few things that are better than Eldritch Blast to do in combat so what if we took everything better than Eldritch Blast before level 9 away and gave lots of things worse than Eldritch Blast?" to be any sort of improvement. At least the old way you sometimes got choices that were better than Eldritch Blast.

Plus lower spell slots makes spells like Armor of Agathys go from an interesting choice to garbage. Oohhh, 10 temp HP at level 5! Look out asthmatic kobolds!

Hybrid casting really only works for utility spells and buffs/debuffs that don't scale through hit points. A +2 to AC is always relevant. 5 temp HP isnt. Any damage spell is useless. Cordon of Arrows anyone?

All of this because they can't admit 1 hour short rests are too damn long.

 

[billd91]

My fear is with this new "simplified" lists of arcane divine primal, we wont see class specific spells

Yeah, we seem to be losing some character here. I was digging the separate spell lists for each class in 5e.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Only if you want your spells to be basically no better than an Eldritch Blast/Hex combo.

Seriously, Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast and Hex is about two points off the damage of a first level spell at the point when you can only cast first level spells. And a two beam Eldritch Blast backed with a stat of 18 (after the level 4 ASI) with a first level slot on Hex does more damage than Scorching Ray.

Under the old system you were spamming Eldritch Blast because you wanted to preserve the high level slots. Under the new system you're spamming Eldritch Blast before level 9 because Eldritch Blast is on a level with the best spells you can cast for the first 8 levels.

I don't see "The Warlock has too few things that are better than Eldritch Blast to do in combat so what if we took everything better than Eldritch Blast before level 9 away and gave lots of things worse than Eldritch Blast?" to be any sort of improvement. At least the old way you sometimes got choices that were better than Eldritch Blast.

Those are some excellent points. I think that the weakest part of this design (or at least, the part that would hurt a Warlock player who switched) is probably the loss of higher-level slots. The Warlock may have been a little OP (when given 3+ short rests per day) before, but they have been overnerfed here, probably.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Crappy spells. You get fireball at 9th level, as opposed to 5th when the damage is significant. All hybrid casters suffer from using full caster's hand me downs many levels after they were relevant. You're still blasting every round because otherwise you're the chump casting a first level burning hands for 9 damage.

If there were more hybrid spells that were GOOD at the level hybrids got them, it would be different. This warlock is 2 level dip material to pick up fighter DPS, then bounce back to full caster.

But if they were good at the levels hybrids get them, they would be  too good for full casters. Hybrids need their own spell lists, and their own spells, to do what you want.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Hybrid casting really only works for utility spells and buffs/debuffs that don't scale through hit points. A +2 to AC is always relevant. 5 temp HP isnt. Any damage spell is useless. Cordon of Arrows anyone?

Or for spells that stack with your action. No one thinks that the Paladin doesn't get good use out of their spells with Eldritch Smite or with the better smite spells. But in the new warlock that's basically Hex ... or would be if they hadn't broken it with the new casting method.

 

[Neonchameleon]

But if they were good at the levels hybrids get them, they would be  too good for full casters. Hybrids need their own spell lists, and their own spells, to do what you want.

So, and I know this might be a couple of radical suggestions, why not allow classes their own spell lists, and allow warlocks to cast as they used to. This all worked.

(And no one thinks that Hex or Hunter's Mark would have been OP in the hands of a wizard or druid - you want the spells to synergise with what else the caster does).

 

[Vaalingrade]

So, and I know this might be a couple of radical suggestions, why not allow classes their own spell lists, and allow warlocks to cast as they used to. This all worked.

Simplification!

It doesn't have to work, it just has to superficially appear easy!

 

[Mephista]

Only if you want your spells to be basically no better than an Eldritch Blast/Hex combo.

Seriously, Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast and Hex is about two points off the damage of a first level spell at the point when you can only cast first level spells. And a two beam Eldritch Blast backed with a stat of 18 (after the level 4 ASI) with a first level slot on Hex does more damage than Scorching Ray.

Under the old system you were spamming Eldritch Blast because you wanted to preserve the high level slots. Under the new system you're spamming Eldritch Blast before level 9 because Eldritch Blast is on a level with the best spells you can cast for the first 8 levels.

I don't see "The Warlock has too few things that are better than Eldritch Blast to do in combat so what if we took everything better than Eldritch Blast before level 9 away and gave lots of things worse than Eldritch Blast?" to be any sort of improvement. At least the old way you sometimes got choices that were better than Eldritch Blast.

To be fair, my favorite things to do with warlock spell slots were mainly buffs. Armor of Agathys was one of my favorites to have up. Most of the warlock unique spells were level 1 and 2 spells, with Hunger of Hadar and Shadow of Moil (a crappy Fire Shield clone) as the exceptions. If they retune those spells for half-caster (probably via Invocations), then the class would work at the same power I'm used to... but with more spell slots.