D&D (2024) 2024 Astral Plane

[Yaarel]

The DMs Guide (p. 58) mentions that the "Outlands" arent one of the Outer Planes. Instead, the description for it is in the section for "Other Planes" (67). It is "between the Outer Planes", this is true, at least so far as it is conceptually in the center of the binary alignment construct. The Outlands are "circular, like a great disk". However it connects to the Outer Planes by means of its portals, thus it itself is separate and remote from the Outer Planes.

By extension, the Outlands and the city of Sigil there can be a dominion somewhere in the Astral Sea.



The DMs Guide (p. 45) also mentions in passing in the context of portals:

"The city of Sigil above the Outlands is known as the City of Doors."

And in the table for colored pools there is mention of the Outlands.



The True Neutral Outlands exists, even tho it is absent from − or unlabeled in − the 5e cosmology map. Notably it isnt an Outer Plane. The Outer Planes in 5e are sixteen, not seventeen.

5e chooses the name "Outlands" rather than "Concordant Opposition".

 

[Yaarel]

Astral Dominions are large islands or some times even planets floating in the Astral Plane, so they obey the rules of the Astral Plane like no aging, Outer Planes play by their own individual rules.

Can you clarify? Are you sure it is true that the "Outer Planes play by their own individual rules?"

According to the 5e DMs Guide (59), the "peculiar characteristics" of each Outer Plane are "Optional Rules".

The official default is, all Outer Planes follow the same rules as the Astral Sea does generally.

In any case, all Outer Planes are "ageless", like the Astral Sea is.

Because specific trumps general, any domain might have rules that operate unlike the rest of the Astral Sea. For example, a particular domain might have time speed up or slow down, or have its own gravity. Such a domain would still be part of the Astral Sea.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Worth mentioning, 4e is a more flexible cosmology. Those tables who want the Wheel (and its alignment system) can have them floating in the Astral Sea as dominions. Those tables who want a different cosmology, such as Eberron or the Tree, can conveniently have different dominions instead.

The Astral Sea with an indefinite number of dominions is friendlier for DMs who are "worldbuilders".

Or they don't have to.

Is there a particular reason you're trying to get everyone onboard with this "astral dominion" idea? I mean if you are just giving your feelings on how you are going to see it, that's fine... but as you said in your initial post "Sorting thru all of this, helps get a sense of the 2024 Astral Plane to come." Are you sorting this out just for yourself (in which case there's no reason to argue for the idea with other people who post here if they disagree) or are you indeed trying to create a "universal" concept of Astral Dominions that you think everybody should be getting on board with?

If this is just personal for you, then cool! If this is a movement to get everyone to follow your lead... then you're going to get pushback, and with good reason.

 

[Yaarel]

Or they don't have to.

Heh. I know they dont have to. But it looks like they will.

The 5e Planescape setting is coming soon.

I have my own trepidations, but it looks like 5e will soon populate and clearly locate the Outer Planes.

Is there a particular reason you're trying to get everyone onboard with this "astral dominion" idea? I mean if you are just giving your feelings on how you are going to see it, that's fine... but as you said in your initial post "Sorting thru all of this, helps get a sense of the 2024 Astral Plane to come." Are you sorting this out just for yourself (in which case there's no reason to argue for the idea with other people who post here if they disagree) or are you indeed trying to create a "universal" concept of Astral Dominions that you think everybody should be getting on board with?

If this is just personal for you, then cool! If this is a movement to get everyone to follow your lead... then you're going to get pushback, and with good reason.

Actually, this thread splices off from an other thread about 2024 player species.

The Tiefling is secure as an option in 2024, and with the Ardling back on the shelf, the Aasimar becomes plausible as an option because of its exceptional popularity.

These two species gain their traits according to the Lower and Upper Planes, respectively.


The playtest Tiefling specifically mentions LG "Infernal", namely Baator, TE "Chthonic" referring to Hades being "underground" in the "Underworld", and CE "Abyssal", namely the Abyss.

(As an aside, the name "Hades" is confusing, because now in 4e and 5e, Shadowfell is the "underworld", not the Lower Plane. It is less confusing to refer the Lower Plane by its name, the "Gray Waste". Then sort out the relationships between Shadowfell and all of the Lower Planes. Maybe call the inhabitants of the Gray Waste "Wasters" or whatever, rather than "chthnonic", which literally means "earthy".)

Potentially, the rest of the Lower Planes might also have their own kinds of Tiefling: Acheron/Avalas, Gehenna, Carceri, and Pandemonium. The traits of the Tiefling would depend on the characterstics of each of these other dominions.


In parallel, the Aasimar would also have diverse ancestries from each of the seven Upper Planes: Arcada, Mount Celestia, Bytopia, Elysium, Beastland, Arborea, and Ysgard.

But because 5e is largely silent about the Outer Planes, there is no clear reference to what the traits from the various ancestries of the Aasimar might be.

Currently, the official 5e Aasimar is something like a Lawful Good Solar ancestry (who happens to be an Aasimon in earlier editions). But these traits make less sense for some of the other potential ancestries.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Still holding out on Planescape being a specific setting and the default cosmology not being bound to the Wheel.

 

[Yaarel]

Still holding out on Planescape being a specific setting and the default cosmology not being bound to the Wheel.

I sympathize. Truly, I am happy with a D&D that has the Material Plane with an Ethereal overlay − and thats it. Nothing else.

But hasnt that ship sailed in 2014?

Presumably the cosmology map in the 2014 Players Handbook is the "default cosmology". It labels the "Outer Planes". The 2014 DMs Guide calls these Outer Planes the "Great Wheel" by name. This seems to already be the default cosmology.



By the way, @Vaalingrade and @DEFCON 1, and others, mention the cosmologies that you prefer and use in your own game. I feel this is important. The designers need to know this kind of thing, in order to avoid baking in various details that prove to be "pain points" among a number of gamers later.

 

[mellored]

Honestly, I prefer it to be vague.

Then you can fill in the blanks for your own personal campaigns.

 

[Maxperson]

It seems the Outer Planes are now Astral dominions after all.

Where are you getting that from. The DMG places the default cosmology for 5e as the Great Wheel, which means the outer planes are not part of the astral.

The sidebar in Spelljammer Guide says, "Because these dominions are part of the Astral Sea, they are timeless. Nothing ages there, and creatures can survive there indefinitely without food or drink."

Dominions are not the same as planes.

 

[Maxperson]

Pretty much 4e, and how 5e largely continues 4e cosmology.

5e did not continue it even a little bit. Read the 5e DMG pages 43 and 44.

Also, Spelljammer mentions Havestar by name as a dominion. This city is a 4e feature and appears to be the homeplane of Pelor in 5e, who is a significant power of True Good, who in 3e associates with True Good Elysium.

Dominion of Pelor, not home plane. Gods can dwell on any plane they want and have their dominions there.

In other words, the Astral dominions more than "summer cottages" sotospeak. They are functioning planes where Humanoids can go to in the afterlife.

That's still not the same as the astral containing the outer planes, which it by default does not. Now 5e gives several other cosmologies you can pick from if the Great Wheel doesn't work for your personal game, or you can create your own, but by default the outer planes are not inside the astral or even a part of it.

 

[Maxperson]

The 5e Planescape setting is coming out this year.

So far, the designers seem to carefully avoid a commitment to what the Outer Planes look like. But with Planescape, they seem ready to commit now.

It is difficult to imagine a Planescape setting that avoids explaining how it relates to the Astral Sea and the rest of the Astral Plane.





Well, the Outer Planes arent synonymous with dominions. There are many dominions that have nothing to do with alignment.

Notice. In the 5e Players Handbook, each "Outer Plane" is actually floating inside the Astral Sea of the Astral Plane.

The impression is, the cartographer of this map has something like this 3e cosmology in mind, where each Outer Plane resembles a "floating island". Again, in the 5e cosmology, these "islands" sotospeak are inside the Astral Sea.

Keep in mind, the concept of "distances" are dreamlike. These Astral "islands" can be larger inside than they appear from outside the island − even infinitely larger.

You're missundestanding the picture. The astral does not contain the other planes floating within it like islands. It's the backdrop of the multiverse that touches all of the other planes.

Think of it like this. You have a massive plane called the astral. At a point on that plane, the plane borders the Abyss. At another point it borders Greyhawk. At a third point it borders Gehenna. And so on.