D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[W'rkncacnter]

10 years and not a single new battlemaster maneuver.

Ambush, Bait and Switch, Brace, Commanding Presence, Grappling Strike, Quick Toss, Tactical Assessment.

like...dude. seriously? this took me 2 minutes to check.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's where multiple classes come in and where D&D fails.
Different classes have different peaks.

The barbarian who just gets stronger, faster, and tougher must bypass Olympian standards if it is to keep up with the Archmage.

The weaponmaster who knows Sensei Wu's Waterfall Slash, Chief Fan's Quashing Pummel, and Lord Ramber's Sword Reign only needs to get to Olympic standards as their special moves are epic.

Whereas the greatest knight does not need to even be Olympic as they have extreme Charm and can attract an intelligent Sword of Chivalry that will only attune to the most knightly of knights.

didn’t old school fighters just kill lowlie mooks en masse?

Why not bring that back?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ambush, Bait and Switch, Brace, Commanding Presence, Grappling Strike, Quick Toss, Tactical Assessment.

like...dude. seriously? this took me 2 minutes to check.

I mentioned it hours and hours ago and it was ignored.

 

[Gammadoodler]

That James Bond. He’s so dependent on engineers and gadgets. It’s the Engineers that are the truly powerful ones in the 007 movies. After all how would he ever get to Rome if they hadn’t built the plane!

Yeah!! And when he finally got to Rome, how would he kill the tractor trailer sized fire lizard in direct hand to hand combat..

Let's see the engineers do that..

Wait..
what's that??
you're telling me this now??
Never?? Not once?
OK..ok..how about like a just a car sized fire-lizard?..
I don't know mid-sized, like a sedan or something..
..yeah yeah like a tank...
really..only with explosives??
never with his bare hands or like a sharpened stick ..maybe like a hammer..?
Fine..I know. I know. I hear you. I got it..
...
..
Ok..ok..ok..
let's pivot..
John McLane..
No? Ok..
John Rambo..
Really?? Not him either?
Surely John Wick...surel..
Ohh..negative...got it..
...
...
..
Dominic Torreto...???
...
Yes, like a tank or smething..
No, not with his car, just with like his fists or a knife.. you know..a weapon.
..
Nothing???
Awww c'mon man.


...
Hmmmm...
...
Hmmmm..
..
..
You know you could have told all this when I started, and we wouldn't be in this silly mess.
...
..
Wellllll..

We might need to think through this a bit..maybe brainstorm some stuff like a professional dragonfighter might need to be able to do..

..because hooo boy these action movie guys.. useless..

 

[Hussar]

The saddest thing about this debate is that it ignores the fact that a fighter is better with a wizard helping them out and a wizard is better with a fighter standing between them and their foes.

A wizard and a fighter is better than two wizards or two fighters. In 30 years of gaming, across multiple groups, online and face to face… I’ve never seen a party made up of wizards.

Huh.

I just ran Candlekeep Mysteries. True, not all wizards. But 5 PC's, all full casters. No rogue, no fighter. No problem.

 

[Hussar]

And yet, it’s very common.

Um…Tasha’s introduced like a dozen or something. Along with a whole section on building Battlemasters.

Well, seven, but, you're point is valid. Ten years and Battlemasters got a whopping seven new maneuvers. Be still my beating heart.

How many spells did wizards get in that time?

 

[Hussar]

I mentioned it hours and hours ago and it was ignored.

Sorry, been catching up on the thread. Edited my point.

I would say though, that while I am not technically correct, the fact that we've gotten a WHOPPING seven new Battlemaster maneuvers and ZERO new Battlemaster mechanics in TEN YEARS, my point still stands.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well, seven, but, you're point is valid. Ten years and Battlemasters got a whopping seven new maneuvers. Be still my beating heart.

It’s a subclass. It got new maneuvers in 1 of two big expansions with class options.

Meanwhile fighters got more subclasses in that time, more feat support, and probably more magic items that help them.

How many spells did wizards get in that time?

Wizard the base class? One of the 4 core classes? Whose whole identity as a class, regardless of subclass, is spells?

 

[Incenjucar]

It’s a subclass. It got new maneuvers in 1 of two big expansions with class options.

Meanwhile fighters got more subclasses in that time, more feat support, and probably more magic items that help them.

Wizard the base class? One of the 4 core classes? Whose whole identity as a class, regardless of subclass, is spells?

How many new weapons and armors?

 

[Hussar]

It’s a subclass. It got new maneuvers in 1 of two big expansions with class options.

Meanwhile fighters got more subclasses in that time, more feat support, and probably more magic items that help them.

Wizard the base class? One of the 4 core classes? Whose whole identity as a class, regardless of subclass, is spells?

I'm sorry, but, aren't fighters one of the 4 core classes? Rogues?

Are you seriously suggesting that fighters and rogues have gotten anywhere near the amount of additional material that clerics and wizards have gotten?

Put it this way. There are 361 spells in the 5e PHB. Between Tasha's and Xanathar's (which are certainly not the only sources of new spells in 5e D&D), there an additional 116 spells. So, fighters got a grand total of 7 new maneuvers, while casters got 116 spells? And you're seriously suggesting that casters aren't being given priority here?

There are a grand total of Eleven subclasses for fighter in 5e D&D (note this includes unofficial Gunslinger and the classes from Wildemount). There are almost more subclasses for wizards in the PHB ALONE.