D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

My current Ravenloft game has a player using Mercer's blood hunter, and the PC can do several things that are magical (light his sword on fire, walk though walls, remove resistance from foes) without spells. But no one in the group would call him mundane. He's got magic blood and that lets him do crazy things.

If the fighter was constructed using the same logic, I'd have no concern with it. Magic blood, spirit, ki, the Force, or muscle power! Call it whatever you want. I just have a hard time with the idea of a local farm kid who goes off to war and comes back able to toss mountains around. Either lose the farm kid or lose the mountain tossing.

Yeah, fine with that and another reason to have a seperate class. I'd prefer if one of the origins was just "mysterious origin. you live in a fantasy world and must have been touched by something. you start manifesting incredible abilties as you level up". Some people don't want specific backstories and I see no reason they have to have it specified in a world as kitchen sick as D&D.

So, basically yes you are magically infused in some way. Done. Now you have design permission to do anything you want. Add any kind of non spellcasting magically ability. If you keep to martially oriented things then you get the mythic martial at high levels.

This gives permission for hulk/power guy, can slice an atom skill guy, extreme dexterity action hero, etc, etc.

This is level based D&D though so it even makes sense to be basically mundane at early levels and then build up to the mythic stuff, which satisfies those players that want more of a mundane feel at lowers levels.

As for the farm kid, I mean that is the oldest trope in the book right? Local farm kid finds out later he is really son of a god, the last dragon speaker, etc.

 

[Emberashh]

I’d bet all the money in my pockets that every single one of them has a method of getting there that doesn’t involve a PC wizard knowing the right spell

You would hope so if nothing else; not having it means the adventure has a potential lock out and that just isn't ever good design regardless.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I reckon John Wick would be in there and lo the 5e fighter is born.

Without the baggage of D&D? I think I only saw the first one and can't remember well, so correct me if I'm wrong on Wick's abilities but I have a hard time believing someone seeing the 5e Wizard only would say "Hmm. This high level 5e Wizard seems to have more versatility, power, and reliability than any fantasy wizards I've seen. A good match for the high level Martial would be a mundane action movie hero?"

 

[Incenjucar]

People are spitballing on making up a new class. Sometimes people say "fixing the Fighter" as shorthand but as I said I've never heard someone say the current Fighter has to go and no one I've seen who wants a mythic martial says it has to be called Fighter.

The thought exercise I like to use is the following:

Imagine someone has never seen an rpg before. This person has watched every fantasy TV and movie in existence and read every fantasy book and is a world class engineer/board game designer.

This person is given the 5e rules without any classes except for the 5e Wizard, and asked to design a few fantasy Martial classes that can't be more versatile and powerful than the Wizard but should be an equal member of the team from levels 1-20.

What kind of classes and abilities do you think we'd get?

As someone who played 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, but not 5th, I've been working on a highly customizable class with a similar philosophy. It contains lots of magicky options, but you can avoid those and a huge portion of it could be flavored as a fighter, and I've been careful to avoid out-damaging the fighter itself, and it's not been hard to design a more flexible melee or ranged character with it with fun utility options. Hyper-focused grappler that can throw a target after running them away from the squishies, speedster that gets a damage bonus when attacking after moving, skirmisher that actually has a reason to max both Strength and Dexterity, terrain bonuses, perception bonuses in an established camp, short-burst defenses, co-op benefits to inspire allies that help them, and so on.

 

[TheSword]

Without the baggage of D&D? I think I only saw the first one and can't remember well, so correct me if I'm wrong on Wick's abilities but I have a hard time believing someone seeing the 5e Wizard only would say "Hmm. This high level 5e Wizard seems to have more versatility, power, and reliability than any fantasy wizards I've seen. A good match for the high level Martial would be a mundane action movie hero?"

He would take everything the Wizard threw at him and the wizard would be dead in seconds. Probably killed by a pencil.

A wizards resilience is massively overstated as is their ability to get things done. Usually relying on Shrodinger’s Wizard again.

In D&D the most common thing that usually needs to get done is to kill something in a timely manner. Usually while it’s trying to kill you. You see it time and time again. Most other tasks can be accomplished in multiple ways over a fairly indeterminate amount of time. Killing things efficiently is the universal constant in every D&D adventure ever published.

There are some notable exceptions, like Wild Beyond the Witchlight, but even that just allows for alternatives. It doesn’t mean killing isn’t a perfectly viable solution. Or if your feeling kind, just incapacitate them… it’s the same thing in 5e.

 

[MichaelSomething]

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." Mike Tyson

He would take everything the Wizard threw at him and the wizard would be dead in seconds. Probably killed by a pencil.

A wizards resilience is massively overstated as is their ability to get things done. Usually relying on Shrodinger’s Wizard again.

In D&D the most common thing that usually needs to get done is to kill someone. You see it time and time again. Most other tasks can be accomplished in multiple ways over a fairly indeterminate amount of time. Killing things efficiently is the universal constant in every D&D adventure ever published.

There are some notable exceptions, like Wild Beyond the Witchlight, but even that just allows for alternatives. It doesn’t mean killing isn’t a perfectly viable solution. Or if your feeling kind, just incapacitate them… it’s the same thing in 5e.

 

[TheSword]

Yeah, fine with that and another reason to have a seperate class. I'd prefer if one of the origins was just "mysterious origin. you live in a fantasy world and must have been touched by something. you start manifesting incredible abilties as you level up". Some people don't want specific backstories and I see no reason they have to have it specified in a world as kitchen sick as D&D.

So, basically yes you are magically infused in some way. Done. Now you have design permission to do anything you want. Add any kind of non spellcasting magically ability. If you keep to martially oriented things then you get the mythic martial at high levels.

This gives permission for hulk/power guy, can slice an atom skill guy, extreme dexterity action hero, etc, etc.

This is level based D&D though so it even makes sense to be basically mundane at early levels and then build up to the mythic stuff, which satisfies those players that want more of a mundane feel at lowers levels.

As for the farm kid, I mean that is the oldest trope in the book right? Local farm kid finds out later he is really son of a god, the last dragon speaker, etc.

Pathfinder 1e has mythic tiers that sat alongside class levels that supercharged everyone. Monsters could have mythic tiers too. It sounds a bit like the vibe you’re angling for.

 

[Krachek]

In the People of the Black Circle Conan is up against the Seers of Yimsha whose apprentices can create balls of mist that explode on contact with metal armour (fireball?).
All Seers are able to use Mesmerism, Read minds and Implant memories/illusions. The more powerful ones can also summon a horse of air (elemental steed?), Kill with a Touch, Kill a whole room with poison fog, explode a door, Steal Souls, Rip out a Heart, shape-change, summon demons, freeze a man with a glance, cause a rock slide, turn into a blood-red mist that can kidnap others, and use spider-climb and teleportation.
The Master of Yimsha also seemed immune to being killed unless their Magic Foci is destroyed - is it a Phylactery?

The Scorcerers Conan faced had some powerful spells, but the casting times do seem longer and the spells generally more subtle than the flash bang of DnD

The most surprising is that Conan eventually wins at the end.

 

[TheSword]

The saddest thing about this debate is that it ignores the fact that a fighter is better with a wizard helping them out and a wizard is better with a fighter standing between them and their foes.

A wizard and a fighter is better than two wizards or two fighters. In 30 years of gaming, across multiple groups, online and face to face… I’ve never seen a party made up of wizards.

 

[Minigiant]

The thought exercise I like to use is the following:

Imagine someone has never seen an rpg before. This person has watched every fantasy TV and movie in existence and read every fantasy book and is a world class engineer/board game designer.

This person is given the 5e rules without any classes except for the 5e Wizard, and asked to design a few fantasy Martial classes that can't be more versatile and powerful than the Wizard but should be an equal member of the team from levels 1-20.

What kind of classes and abilities do you think we'd get?

One impassibility for the person to build on common gamist and competitive feeatures. Build a class based on each of the Ability Score combo's gimmicks and going completely into it like one would create superheroes.

All Dex Speedster
All Str Hulk
All Con Tank
Str/Dex Blender
Str, Dex and Con Bruiser