D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Gammadoodler]

Rejecting the premise is engaging with the premise.

Edit: and I think its preferable to not drag the convo into litigating engagement.

It is if it's explicit. Otherwise it's a non sequitur.

But ultimately my question was answered.

When Bert asked you to refer to their assumptions, your reply that under those assumptions there is no mythic martial was simply false.

It was just a thing you wanted to say.

I don't mind that you wanted to say it. But it doesn't follow from assumptions included in Bert's post.

 

[Remathilis]

Prove it.

I have seen mine and other to have a martial class on par with a full casters for options and abilities

How do you get on par with flight, teleporting, shapechanging, invisibility, raise dead, scrying, or wish all while doing it nonmagically? You don't. THATS what I mean. You want the power of a machine gun with the appearance and benefits of a spear (and none of the hassle of tracking bullets).

You want classes on part with full spellcasters? Fine. Explain where their supernatural power is coming from and you can have it. That's apparently a bridge too far for you. So Here I sit again noting you could convince me (and probably a lot like me) to create martial classes that can do those things IF ONLY you justify it with some supernatural bullpucky, but the fact we have to keep playing in this "superhero but not supernatural" border region is why these discussions are circular.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I find this extremely unlikely to say the least. What evidence do you have that WotC even acknowledges your concerns as a problem, let alone one they're willing to re-design the game to address? They are bending over backwards to make OneD&D backwards compatible with a game that has all the problems you describe, to the point where they're not even willing to officially replace the 2014 PH with what they consider better design work, and are instead allowing people to choose. You cannot turn to WotC for help here.

Seems for sure they aren't going to reduce caster power and aren't going to boost the existing martial classes to the mythic martial level at high levels.

That said, they could add a new optional mythic martial class in a splat book (no more powerful or versatile than the Wizard).

This wouldn't invalidate anything, be compatible, and give a chunk of people a bit more of what they want within the existing, not great high level game.

The reason they don't could be many things. But I don't think anything going on with OneD&D would explicitly prohibit this optional class from existing too within this game.

 

[Remathilis]

Assumptions--
no changes to spellcasting/spellcasters,
mythic martial will be a separate, new class
this mythic martial will be no more versatile and powerful than the current wizard,
all existing classes will still exist

Add "mythic martials supernatural powers come from a defined source in the fiction" and you have my sword.

 

[Incenjucar]

Add "mythic martials supernatural powers come from a defined source in the fiction" and you have my sword.

"Mysterious Forces"

Alternatively: "Broken Limiters"

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

How do you get on par with flight, teleporting, shapechanging, invisibility, raise dead, scrying, or wish all while doing it nonmagically? You don't. THATS what I mean. You want the power of a machine gun with the appearance and benefits of a spear (and none of the hassle of tracking bullets).

You want classes on part with full spellcasters? Fine. Explain where their supernatural power is coming from and you can have it. That's apparently a bridge too far for you. So Here I sit again noting you could convince me (and probably a lot like me) to create martial classes that can do those things IF ONLY you justify it with some supernatural bullpucky, but the fact we have to keep playing in this "superhero but not supernatural" border region is why these discussions are circular.

Maybe there're several viewpoints, but most of the mythic martial supporters I've seen are fine with mythical origins. I think one should be "don't know - you might be the son of a god, faie, magic blood, etc. But you are not mundane" for those that don't want to be tied to something specific.

There are also the "action heroy" max limit martial people, but I don't think they are arguing for the crazy stuff.

Also, most mythic martial supporters want to be more on par with full spellcasters, but I'm not sure we will actually get completely there because we still want these abilities to be "martially", which to me means mostly physically oriented and a bit more limited than the arcane spell list which spans way too many types of magic.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Add "mythic martials supernatural powers come from a defined source in the fiction" and you have my sword

Can it be defined and vague? Mythic bloodline.

D&D is so kitchen sink and vague setting wise anyway I think one should be "you don't know - you might be the son of a god, faie, magic blood, devil spawn, etc. But you are not mundane" for those that don't want to be tied to something specific.

If D&D wanted to define this source more for each of their specific settings that is ok.

But I guess I really don't care as long as this source was unconstrained in terms of effects it could give you. It's just the permission. Very easy to adapt the fluff.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Seems for sure they aren't going to reduce caster power and aren't going to boost the existing martial classes to the mythic martial level at high levels.

That said, they could add a new optional mythic martial class in a splat book (no more powerful or versatile than the Wizard).

This wouldn't invalidate anything, be compatible, and give a chunk of people a bit more of what they want within the existing, not great high level game.

The reason they don't could be many things. But I don't think anything going on with OneD&D would explicitly prohibit this optional class from existing too within this game.

It wouldn't. But in the history of 5e, WotC has created exactly one new class, and the design process for the artificer made it look like doing so was an extremely reluctant move on their part. I find it very unlikely that they will decide to just make a "mythic martial" class appear in a random supplement down the road.

Another question: what does low level look like for this mythic martial? It is still supposed to be a 20 level class, correct?

 

[Micah Sweet]

"Mysterious Forces"

Alternatively: "Broken Limiters"

Swing and a miss for me. No narrative, no super powers. Why should mythic martials be exempt from that?

 

[Remathilis]

Maybe there're several viewpoints, but most of the mythic martial supporters I've seen are fine with mythical origins. I think one should be "don't know - you might be the son of a god, faie, magic blood, etc. But you are not mundane" for those that don't want to be tied to something specific.

There are also the "action heroy" max limit martial people, but I don't think they are arguing for the crazy stuff.

Also, most mythic martial supporters want to be more on par with full spellcasters, but I'm not sure we will actually get completely there because we still want these abilities to be "martially", which to me means mostly physically oriented and a bit more limited than the arcane spell list which spans way too many types of magic.

I think it should be like the sorcerer: you have an innate ability, but your subclass defines the origin. Maybe you have draconic powers, psionics, or astral swordplay or you have the blessing (or bloodline) or a deity. Nobody plays a sorcerer or a warlock and when it comes time to pick their power source chooses "IDK". I see this as no different.