D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Micah Sweet]

In a setting where the first choice you make is between 600 year-old child of the fey, fiendspawn, human, and a seven foot dragon man...absolutely not.

Any similarity to real-world physics as we understand them is simple narrative convenience.

I strongly disagree. Gravity is gravity and humans are humans unless told otherwise.

 

[Emberashh]

I strongly disagree. Gravity is gravity and humans are humans unless told otherwise.

I did have that thought earlier; don't call them humans. Terran is an easy sidestep in scifi, and I don't think it'd be too out of place in fantasy.

 

[Hussar]

Given the idea that "human" in a D&D world have been living cheek to jowl with all sorts of other races, never minding magical environments and various other magical influences, the idea that humans are just baseline Earth humans is pretty unsupportable. Or, at least, the idea that my 18th level fighter doesn't have some sort of mythic ancestor a la Conan isn't all that strange. After all, even Conan, that most baseline of fighter examples, is a direct descendant of Atlantis and isn't actually fully "human".

 

[James Gasik]

A given human could have up to 25% elven or orcish blood (or both!) without being mechanically distinct. The existence of Aasimar, Tieflings, and Genasi implies that extraplanar heritage can lurk in someone's bloodline for quite some time without manifesting. So yeah, saying that fantasy humans are 100% identical with Earth humans is a bit odd; last I checked, I'm not at risk of marrying a nice girl and having a kid with horns, a tail, superior nightvision, resistance to fire damage, and the Thaumaturgy cantrip (you might argue some of those, but not all)!

 

[Gammadoodler]

I strongly disagree. Gravity is gravity and humans are humans unless told otherwise.

In a world where gravity can be reversed, time can be stopped, the material plane is but one of many, and plain old humans can learn to do magic..

..we have been told otherwise

 

[Hussar]

The whole caster/martial discussion also ignores 1 VERY important thing. The cost to a caster to gain new options is trivial. For a fighter to gain a bonus feat/ASI, the only way that fighter can do it is gain levels. There is nothing else the fighter can do to gain that new option. Even magic items are dependent upon the DM making them available. And, generally, magic items for sale are a major expense. That 20th level fighter most likely did not buy +3 armor and a +3 shield. Not that that's unreasonable for that 20th level fighter to have, but, it's certainly not guaranteed.

OTOH, the only thing a wizard has to do to gain new options is find/buy spells. And those are cheap. And at every spell level, there are 30 (ish) options to choose from. Never minding that the wizard is getting 2 of them every level. A single enemy wizard could easily net a dozen new options for the wizard.

Imagine if killing a troll netted a fighter a dozen new options. Laughable right? But, an enemy wizard? You score that spellbook, which every enemy wizard has, and poof, you've got a dozen or more new options for your character. Forever.

The idea that we cannot give non-casters new options seems a bit strange since we have zero problems granting casters dozens of new options every two levels for the non-book casters, and potentially dozens of options simply for killing the right monster.

 

[Tonguez]

Given the idea that "human" in a D&D world have been living cheek to jowl with all sorts of other races, never minding magical environments and various other magical influences, the idea that humans are just baseline Earth humans is pretty unsupportable. Or, at least, the idea that my 18th level fighter doesn't have some sort of mythic ancestor a la Conan isn't all that strange. After all, even Conan, that most baseline of fighter examples, is a direct descendant of Atlantis and isn't actually fully "human".

Atlanteans are humans, after the sinking of Atlantis some survivors escaped and devolved backwards before becoming Cimmerians.

but yes I do agree with your point, gravity doesnt work in DnD like it does in the real world and neither does biology.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Given the idea that "human" in a D&D world have been living cheek to jowl with all sorts of other races, never minding magical environments and various other magical influences, the idea that humans are just baseline Earth humans is pretty unsupportable. Or, at least, the idea that my 18th level fighter doesn't have some sort of mythic ancestor a la Conan isn't all that strange. After all, even Conan, that most baseline of fighter examples, is a direct descendant of Atlantis and isn't actually fully "human".

All of which is fine, I just feel very strongly that it needs to be said explicitly, or you're going to keep getting these arguments. It's not unreasonable to assume people that look and act like humans are, unless told otherwise, humans like we know them. Nobody thinks Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru are members of a special magical species.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In a world where gravity can be reversed, time can be stopped, the material plane is but one of many, and plain old humans can learn to do magic..

..we have been told otherwise

We have been told otherwise in those specific instances. If no one reverses gravity, it works like it does anywhere else.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The whole caster/martial discussion also ignores 1 VERY important thing. The cost to a caster to gain new options is trivial. For a fighter to gain a bonus feat/ASI, the only way that fighter can do it is gain levels. There is nothing else the fighter can do to gain that new option. Even magic items are dependent upon the DM making them available. And, generally, magic items for sale are a major expense. That 20th level fighter most likely did not buy +3 armor and a +3 shield. Not that that's unreasonable for that 20th level fighter to have, but, it's certainly not guaranteed.

OTOH, the only thing a wizard has to do to gain new options is find/buy spells. And those are cheap. And at every spell level, there are 30 (ish) options to choose from. Never minding that the wizard is getting 2 of them every level. A single enemy wizard could easily net a dozen new options for the wizard.

Imagine if killing a troll netted a fighter a dozen new options. Laughable right? But, an enemy wizard? You score that spellbook, which every enemy wizard has, and poof, you've got a dozen or more new options for your character. Forever.

The idea that we cannot give non-casters new options seems a bit strange since we have zero problems granting casters dozens of new options every two levels for the non-book casters, and potentially dozens of options simply for killing the right monster.

It is easier to explain that a caster finds a spellbook with new spells in it, than that a fighter kills a troll and now knows several new combat tricks. You could correct that by providing books of martial maneuvers or rituals that provide new martial options.