D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Micah Sweet]

If they have no innate ability to do magic stuff, why should they be allowed to be wizards or bards?

Perhaps they learn how to do magic stuff? Like the class descriptions say. Even then, there's no reason to assume its a species trait.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There is nothing in the existing fighter narrative which implies 'limited to earth-standard capabilities'.

Not saying otherwise, and not using magic, implies that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Level Up is good but ultimately doesn't deviate that much. It offers better versions of the spells and more obstacles that can be bypassed by magical means.

But it is more weakening the magic than bringing the fighter to the archwarrior to match the Archmage.

Sure. I really don't need it to deviate that much, but if you do that's fine. Just make sure you make your new base assumptions clear in the product.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I meant the Fighters abilities contradict the idea its just supposed to be an Earthling. Second Wind and Indomitable don't have real world equivalents.

Yeah, I've never really liked them for that reason. No explanation again.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It however fails because subclasses are never deep or have the mechanical power to make it work.
It's why the ranger c;lass started off brokenly underpowered. All the power and flavor was put into subclass but the design space wasn't there.
And it begs the question, if the subclasses are the real meat... why not just make them into classes.

Why have a Fighter who dabbles into Battlemaster and Rune Knight just to miss the mark instead of making a Fighter class, a Battlemaster class, and a Rune Knight class?

"BeCaUse ClAsS BlOaT!"

Yup. That's a system problem that requires a ground level rewrite.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Where are all the fantasy examples of D&D like Wizards? No one ever comes up with a good list. D&D spellcasters are self-referential and only resemble D&D. There are few examples of D&D high level Wizards in fiction because the power set makes for bad narratives. Even the D&D fiction I've read doesn't depict them like the game.

Funny enough, comic books seem to reflect them better -- ala Dr. Strange.

Very true. Too bad D&D isn't designed a superhero game.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

"Fighters* aren't your typical soldiers or guard. They have a destiny. Some gain this destiny at birth as the scions of dragon, giants or gods. Others forge their own destiny mastering esoteric forces like psionics, rune magic or spirit. As a fighter travels in the world, they unlock more of their destiny, making them capable of supernatural feats that bards sing of. Eventually, their master the source of their destiny and unlock powers to rival the mightiest magic.

While a fighter's destiny is often discovered early, it does not mean their fate is foretold. The battlefields of history are littered with fighters who were unable to fulfill their destiny, and some of the greatest villains in history are those who discovered their destiny was far different than they believed. Ultimately a fighter's story is not written in stone, they merely have the tools necessary to carve it out."

*Even the name is boring. Paragon, Warrior, something.

That has sizzle! What's your destiny? Dragon samurai? Rune knight? Psi-warrior? Titan-born? What's your powers? Flying and breathing fire? Enchanting your weapons, armor and body with mystic runes? Telekinesis and psychometabolics? The raw strength and stamina of the Gods? There are plenty of options for expansion too: echo knights and durnamancy, inheritors and legacy weapons, Incarnates and chakras, the possibilities are endless.

And you only what this will cost? The Champion. The boring, nonmagical fighter who is defined by a fighting style and some hit points. No powers, no origin, no destiny. Slightly more interesting than an NPC. That's what you lose: the everyman. But you're already comfortable with killing him: at 10th+ level you already want him doing things beyond mortal limitations. And so do I. I just want him doing them a.) Sooner than 10th and b.) With a narrative reason.

We both want more interesting fighters. We're arguing lore justification. You could convince me and Micah with one compromise. Isn't that worth it?

Love this. Leaves room for a lot of different types within one class (cause we ain't getting more than 1!) just like the Wizard.

Manifestation can happen later if you want it too and just pick cool action heroy abilities in the lower levels for that mundane to mythic feel if you want.

The class / subclass split has to be similar though to existing spellcasters -- the subclass defines you somewhat and ties you to your power source. BUT you need the broad menu of abilities that somewhat rival 1-9 level spells available to any mythic martial. Otherwise you are asking the subclass to do too much. Yes, this allows for some mixing and matching between abilities but you still have the subclass and don't think it can be done otherwise. Otherwise you do need a separate class for each power source.

Separate class from Fighter is a must. Definitely rename it. I prefer Mythic Martial but Paragon is fine. Leave the Champion there for those that want him.

 

[Micah Sweet]

To give an idea of my ideal:

View attachment 288597

And I wouldn't say grognards have an issue with high level play so much as the gonzo; but even that isn't a universal opinion. DCC is a hell of a lot wilder than 5e is and its well beloved.

Plus, do any grognards even care what mainline DND is doing anymore?

The OSR has perhaps slowed over the yeard, but I think that strain of DND fan has long since segregrated themselves into their own games.

The only ones I can think of that might would be those coming back to the hobby after so long, but they eventually find their way to the OSR from what Ive seen.

DCC is awesomely dangerous and scary. 5e is not.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Very true. Too bad D&D isn't designed a superhero game.

I mean that's the meat of a lot of these threads. The nature of high level spellcasters necessarily puts D&D into a superhero/mythic genre at high levels whether it wants it or not. But some of the classes never not the message.

 

[Minigiant]

Sure. I really don't need it to deviate that much, but if you do that's fine. Just make sure you make your new base assumptions clear in the product.

Clarity would be "giving the DM or the grognards a clear picture of the game and thus telling them what to do"

Can't have that. Or people might think that having the same exact desire means the books aren't for them and not buy the books.