D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

Arcane and Divine are "weave" magic.

Which is a meaningless term unless you know Forgotten Realms mythology. And also false in other DnD worlds.

Psionic mind magic and Ki magic are "soul" magic.

Which is never stated in DnD at all.

Primal magic is probably "soul" magic, but in the sense that features of nature have souls.

Which is also never stated in DnD at all, and ignores the fact that some DnD worlds attribute primal magic to divine beings, nature gods.

So yes, you can make crap up about how magic works. We know this. This is accepted fact. Except funnily enough, they never bother to explain it. Not in the level of detail you are insisting we provide for the martials to justify them. Well, specifically the fighter and the rogue, because the monk and barbarian are already good to go with power sources.

 

[Yaarel]

Nope, four different possible magic sources don't matter because I decided to play into the trope of "scholars ask, warriors act" and that means it is bad and wrong to design a class that way. Four answers aren't enough because I need to explicitly decide on only one possible thing... like the sorcerer who has four or five different power sources.

That still sounds like intentional obfuscation.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You prefer the superhuman Fighter to actually be core, yeah? So there is a design space to accommodate superhuman powers.

If so, it is important to appeal to as many players as possible, including the ones who need narrative.

And in the name of that "don't you want to appeal to everyone" those who want to stop what we are doing will constantly nitpick and find problems with it and prevent us from every doing it.

So, no, I don't need to appeal to those people. We gave answers. Drop it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because not everyone wants a bare mechanical skeleton entirely dependent on the player to have any meaning beyond that.

And not everyone cares about the base design and they want to make up their own. So those players will appreciate a flexible approach. See, I can appeal to "well other players" too.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That still sounds like intentional obfuscation.

And you still sound like you want to throw up every possible road block you can imagine to prevent us from getting anything actually accomplished.

Do you remember that I posted a link to this thread 5 days ago?

https://www.enworld.org/threads/chaosmancer-martial-brews.698337/page-2

I started actually building systems and actually creating things for a fighter... without the need to constantly argue with people about how exactly we define magic so that we can declare all fighters are psychic and use their midichlorians to affect the aether of the third world, which obviously means that they can't use their abilities when confronted with black radiant shards from Ur-Um.

So, maybe, just accept that we are making a broad base, generic answer that can fit in many settings. A light touch if you will. And stop demanding that we need to declare a specific thing that you agree with.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I would argue that the "how" of spellcasting matters very much to any particular class, and imo should inform the abilities they get just as much as the "how" of a mythic martial should. I'm not being unfair. Everyone should have narrative justification for what they do.

In a game specific to one setting, where the "how" has a narrative impact, I might agree.

That isn't what D&D is. The settings vary and should with DMs conceptions of them. And with the possible exception of Warlock patrons, the likelihood of any class's "how" having a differentiable narrative impact is vanishingly small.

And I'll point out again that you've admitted that both groups we're comparing have insufficient narrative justification (by your standards) for the mechanics they possess

Yet one group is allowed to exist, and one is not. And it seems you are fine with this.

But you're not being unfair?

How does this work for you?

 

[Yaarel]

Which is a meaningless term unless you know Forgotten Realms mythology. And also false in other DnD worlds.

In the 2014 Players Handbook, the description of the Weave is − appropriately − contained in a sidebox. So it is easy to ignore if the DM has a different theory of magic in mind. But it is there as a default flavor. The Weave is true for every official D&D setting, including Dark Sun and Eberron, and Theros and Strixhaven. The Forgotten Realms setting calls it "the Weave", but other settings can refer to it by other names. But it is true in every official setting.

"
THE WEAVE OF MAGIC
The worlds within the D&D multiverse are magical places. All existence is suffused with magical power, and potential energy lies untapped in every rock, stream, and living creature, and even in the air itself. Raw magic is the stuff of creation, the mute and mindless will of existence, permeating every bit of malter and present in every manifestation of energy throughout the multiverse.

Mortals cant directly shape this raw magic. Instead, they make use of a fabric of magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic. The spellcasters of the Forgotten Realms call it the Weave.

"

The Weave exists in all "worlds within the D&D multiverse". There is an ambient magic that "suffuses" all that exists. Existence itself is magical. Spellcasters make use of how this magic entangles things forming a "Weave".

This sentence annoys me, "mortals cant directly shape this raw magic", because creatures that have innate magic do shape it directly.

This weave is cosmic ambient magical potential. And Arcane and Divine use different methods to access it.

The description of the Weave ignores Psionic and Primal, as well as superhuman Martial.


Tashas mentions the Psionic magic is innate "within" and personal, and its source is the "mind", "the minds power", "mental force", and so on. Notably, for the Psi Warrior, the "various Psionic powers" are class features and arent spells. Psionic is always magic, but not necessarily spellcasting.

In any case, the example of 5e Psionic that utilizes the mind of the soul, suggests the D&D tradition that distinguishes a personal weave that is distinct from the cosmic ambient weave.

Inferrably, there is a cosmic weave versus a personal soul. Both can be sources of magical effects.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I can look for the citation from Gygax. But I feel it is unnecessary because the 5e designers themselves emphasize how important narrative is when making design decisions.



Yes, I too care about worldbuilding and unique character concepts. Customizability is vital for me.

But my needs dont detract from the needs of other players who really do need a default.

2024 seems to adopt a method of, "Use this, or else use something else of your choosing." This is for character concepts, but it can also apply to worldbuilding. "Use this setting assumption, or something else that you and your DM agree on".

The 5e designers also openly invite players to come up with their own ideas for why their characters are the way they are.

I mentioned it earlier, but in he fighter section, under the creating your character bit, they ask players to think about "what makes them different from the mundane warriors around them". It does seem like there is an expectation for players to supply some juice here.

Note: this quote would seem to dispute the fighter mundanity some people cling to as if it were holy writ).

 

[Yaarel]

And you still sound like you want to throw up every possible road block you can imagine to prevent us from getting anything actually accomplished.

Do you remember that I posted a link to this thread 5 days ago?

https://www.enworld.org/threads/chaosmancer-martial-brews.698337/page-2

I started actually building systems and actually creating things for a fighter... without the need to constantly argue with people about how exactly we define magic so that we can declare all fighters are psychic and use their midichlorians to affect the aether of the third world, which obviously means that they can't use their abilities when confronted with black radiant shards from Ur-Um.

So, maybe, just accept that we are making a broad base, generic answer that can fit in many settings. A light touch if you will. And stop demanding that we need to declare a specific thing that you agree with.

Simply pick one as the default.

 

[Yaarel]

The 5e designers also openly invite players to come up with their own ideas for why their characters are the way they are.

I mentioned it earlier, but in he fighter section, under the creating your character bit, they ask players to think about "what makes them different from the mundane warriors around them". It does seem like there is an expectation for players to supply some juice here.

Note: this quote would seem to dispute the fighter mundanity some people cling to as if it were holy writ).

Supplying a default and allowing for alternatives, works well enough.