D&D (2024) Chaosmancer Martial Brews

[Yaarel]

an aside, but see, this is hilarious, because bows actually require a ton of muscle to use properly and consistently - or in other words, it would be entirely appropriate to class them as strength weapons.

as for the rest of the post...huh. alright then.

Fair enough. But guns (crossbows) that require cautious steady aim are Dexterity weapons. I am fine with ignoring the Strength requirement for a bow, unless it is specifically a "Strength bow" that allows one to add Strength to damage. But those who cannot meet the Strength prereq cannot use a Strength bow.

 

[Horwath]

an aside, but see, this is hilarious, because bows actually require a ton of muscle to use properly and consistently - or in other words, it would be entirely appropriate to class them as strength weapons.

as for the rest of the post...huh. alright then.

I would say that bows are dex weapons with minimal STR requirement.
dex for aiming(attack roll) and bonus damage(even better aim), but you need STR to use it without penalties.
Most basic bow(d8) should require 12 STR at least, and some really strong bows(2d6 damage) would require 20 STR.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I would say that bows are dex weapons with minimal STR requirement.
dex for aiming(attack roll) and bonus damage(even better aim), but you need STR to use it without penalties.
Most basic bow(d8) should require 12 STR at least, and some really strong bows(2d6 damage) would require 20 STR.

okay, okay, let's not divert the post into being about strength bows.

 

[Chaosmancer]

i actually really like that strength rule. and, funnily enough, the DC for a strength 16 character to lift 1,024 pounds is the exact same DC to lift a 1,000 pound portcullis listed in level up's dungeon delver's guide (although that's an objective DC based on the weight of the object, not a subjective DC relative to the lifter's strength). i might steal that.

Huh, I did not know that.

I was mostly trying to find a way that allowed for huge creatures to move massive amounts, but that didn't break immediately in other situations. I went through a doze or so variations.

i think the easiest way to limit jumping would be to simply say that jumping solely for movement (i.e. not for a specific jumping-related purpose) is indistinguishable from using your speed. it's kind of cheating, but it lets you have cool jumping rules without having people just bunny hop all over the field. i mean, either that or you can just let people go hog wild and describe jumping for movement as fantastical bounding (e.g. grog from the vox machina show). either would probably work fine depending on what kind of game you want, honestly.

Sleeping on it, I'm leaning towards rewriting the remarkable athlete ability to say

Remarkable Physique: Your training and dedication have made you a truly remarkable specimen of athleticism. You may long jump or high jump as a bonus action, instead of an action. If you chose to use your action instead, all jump distances are doubled for that jump.

This lets them make 15 or 20 ft leaps as a bonus action, but then truly fly when they focus their action on doing so, which is better for exploration.

the only thing i really have to say about the arts system (other then the fact that the number of arts read like they dart up by 2-3 for the full martials at the specified levels, which is...weird) is i'm iffy on the exact usage of the proficiency die. like, i understand why it's here - you're using it to limit what is otherwise a completely at-will maneuver system - but i don't know how i feel about forcing it to replace your attack's proficiency bonus. like, i'm not entirely certain why it couldn't be rolled separately from the attack. other then that...yes, this is certainly a maneuver system. it has maneuvers.

They absolutely do increase by 1, 2 or 3 trained arts at the proper levels. I like predicatable patterns, but I also didn't want to give a dozen trained arts to a level 1 fighter.


It could be rolled seperately from the attack, but there is a bit of math and a bit of psychology I wanted to have at work here. The die represents uncertainty, you feel like using a combat art is a risk because it is a more complex and more likely to fail because of it. But, mathematically, the average of the die is slightly higher than the flat bonus. And in fact, an art could roll really well on the die, and allow you to hit an enemy you would normally miss. It is possible that you will fight an enemy who you have trouble hitting, and decide to risk an art... because if the die rolls higher you have a better chance of hitting. And, in story... isn't that exactly what people do? You have an opponent you have trouble connecting with and so you pull out a risky stunt to try and swing the fight back in your favor.

I haven't had time to test it personally, but I like the potential I'm seeing in it. Both the "I don't want to risk missing by trying something fancy" and the "I can't normally hit this guy, let's try something fancy and see if it works"

as an aside, i've been wondering about if this replacement for the fighter's/barbarian's/monk's extra attack would be any good:

i wrote this with the assumption it would be run in o5e or level up - if you were going to run it in OneDND, i'd 100% add Jump to the list of actions that can replace an attack. the star of the show here is obviously dash - being able to dash and attack (or dash 2-3 times and attack for higher level fighters) in a turn just like that is pretty spicy. don/doff a shield and use an object are here mainly to allow better action economy RAW and escape a grapple is here because...well, honestly because we basically already run escape a grapple as replacing an attack in the games i play in, but it helps sell the idea that you're really getting stronger then a caster could ever hope to be. if i went ahead with this i'd also probably combine flurry of blows and step of the wind such that flurry of blows attacks can also be used to dash/jump and gives you the additional step of the wind effects, if only so fighters can't get more dashes then a monk (although if i ran this in level up, it wouldn't be a problem since monks/adepts can get a third attack and fighters never get a fourth!).

my biggest concern would be making cunning action look weak, but maybe rogues could get a mid-level feature to let them use a cunning action on top of any bonus action they take on their turn (including another cunning action)? that'd certainly fix the potential issue of cunning action seeming weak by comparison.

Hmm, I like the idea here, but I'm seeing the same boat in a lot of ways.

Dash as an attack does start stepping on cunning action and step of the wind, but it is neat to get all the speed.

Shield is great, love that.

Escape a grapple.... Well... technically? You escape a grapple when you are out of reach of the enemy. Use an attack to shove and you knock them back and escape.

Use an item would be great... but I was just starting to make rogues item users and this would step into that.

So, I think for me, I wouldn't use this rule. I make make a special shield rule to allow more easily stowing shields, but I want to keep speed and items for rogues and leave attack power for barbs and fighters. But I could see going the other way with it.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Strength makes no sense in D&D.

I am in pretty good shape. I unload 30-50lbs boxes once a week at my job. I pick them up carry them about 30ft (more or less) then put them down and empty them one bottle or can at a time. Some times guys will say they will help and try to show off and lift 2 of the boxes and struggle over.
my brother is a Marine, and wont let anyone forget it. He talks about having to take 30lbs ammo boxes lift them over head and hold them for 10-15 mintues.
So I once told him "little old me and my friend here, that you can bench press could do that" and we did... it wasn't fun or easy but we did it.

My brother is built like a brick house. he hits the gym, he runs, he carries weight while running.

okay so what would you say our str scores look like? while I can move unencumbered at 50lbs but not 100lbs (at least not for long) He can lift 200lbs easy but isn't going to be running or carrying more then 150lbs any distance.

so me in darn good shape (if I do say so myself) has a str of 4 or 5, and he has a 8 or 9...

when I google the strongest men and most wight the answer I get is 1.185lbs but that is once up and down... so that is a str of 40.

so the str score puts strong normal people so low it is a penalty, and the strongest people on the planet over giants.

here are str scores and what they can do...

8 lift and carry all day 120lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 240lbs
9 lift and carry all day 135lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 270lbs
10 lift and carry all day 150lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 300lbs (already well above what any normal non weight lifter can do...but remember Marine gear is anywhere from 50-70lbs... so this is already caring two loads of Marine gear all day)
11 lift and carry all day 165lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 330lbs
12 lift and carry all day 180lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 360lbs
13 lift and carry all day 195lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 390lbs
14 lift and carry all day 210lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 420lbs (nice)
15 lift and carry all day 225lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 450lbs
16 lift and carry all day 240lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 480lbs
17 lift and carry all day 275lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 510lbs
18 lift and carry all day 290lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 540lbs
19 lift and carry all day 305lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 570lbs
20 lift and carry all day 320lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 600lbs ( i was going to stop here but barbarians might get up to 24 str with class ups)
21 lift and carry all day 335lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 630lbs
22 lift and carry all day 350lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 660lbs
23 lift and carry all day 365lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 690lbs
24 lift and carry all day 380lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 720lbs

so the marine that can run for 8 hours carrying 80lbs of gear and feel beat to you know way after wards just is too low to calculate and at least a dozen strong men that move 1,000+ lbs are better then 24 str 20th level barbarians.

Speed does this too.


30ft every 6 seconds is 300ft per minute or 18,000ft per hour. just about 3 1/2 miles per hour. D&D over land travel says with this nice chart that is more or less right:
Distance Traveled per...

Pace	Minute	Hour	Day	Effect
Fast	400 feet	4 miles	30 miles	-5 penalty to passive Wisdom (Perception) scores
Normal	300 feet	3 miles	24 miles	—
Sl⁠ow	200 feet	2 miles	18 miles	Able to use stealth

so again US Marine (since I hear this one all the time) have to do a 1 1/2 mile run in 13 1/12 minutes my brother brags about doing it in under 10... I doubt he could keep that up for an hour let alone a day (I am sure he would tell me he could)
Google tells me a 10 mile run in 45 minutes is spitting distance to the world record.

okay so lets say I multi class barbarian with rogue, and am the elf with +5ft movement for a movement of 45 BUT cunning action double move to 90ft.so 3x the speed of the above chart so normal is 9 miles an hour and 72 miles a day...
lets say I am a slow guy, I only move 20 (not something D&D actually does you can't be slow but hey) then that would lower those numbers...

 

[Chaosmancer]

Strength makes no sense in D&D.

I am in pretty good shape. I unload 30-50lbs boxes once a week at my job. I pick them up carry them about 30ft (more or less) then put them down and empty them one bottle or can at a time. Some times guys will say they will help and try to show off and lift 2 of the boxes and struggle over.
my brother is a Marine, and wont let anyone forget it. He talks about having to take 30lbs ammo boxes lift them over head and hold them for 10-15 mintues.
So I once told him "little old me and my friend here, that you can bench press could do that" and we did... it wasn't fun or easy but we did it.

My brother is built like a brick house. he hits the gym, he runs, he carries weight while running.

okay so what would you say our str scores look like? while I can move unencumbered at 50lbs but not 100lbs (at least not for long) He can lift 200lbs easy but isn't going to be running or carrying more then 150lbs any distance.

so me in darn good shape (if I do say so myself) has a str of 4 or 5, and he has a 8 or 9...

when I google the strongest men and most wight the answer I get is 1.185lbs but that is once up and down... so that is a str of 40.

so the str score puts strong normal people so low it is a penalty, and the strongest people on the planet over giants.

here are str scores and what they can do...

8 lift and carry all day 120lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 240lbs
9 lift and carry all day 135lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 270lbs
10 lift and carry all day 150lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 300lbs (already well above what any normal non weight lifter can do...but remember Marine gear is anywhere from 50-70lbs... so this is already caring two loads of Marine gear all day)
11 lift and carry all day 165lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 330lbs
12 lift and carry all day 180lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 360lbs
13 lift and carry all day 195lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 390lbs
14 lift and carry all day 210lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 420lbs (nice)
15 lift and carry all day 225lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 450lbs
16 lift and carry all day 240lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 480lbs
17 lift and carry all day 275lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 510lbs
18 lift and carry all day 290lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 540lbs
19 lift and carry all day 305lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 570lbs
20 lift and carry all day 320lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 600lbs ( i was going to stop here but barbarians might get up to 24 str with class ups)
21 lift and carry all day 335lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 630lbs
22 lift and carry all day 350lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 660lbs
23 lift and carry all day 365lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 690lbs
24 lift and carry all day 380lbs, or lift and drag to "show off" 720lbs

so the marine that can run for 8 hours carrying 80lbs of gear and feel beat to you know way after wards just is too low to calculate and at least a dozen strong men that move 1,000+ lbs are better then 24 str 20th level barbarians.

Yep, it really doesn't work as designed, which is why I tried to fix it.

I also want to note... what generally matters in terms of game moments aren't the long distance hauls that are actually impossible feats of endurance. What generally matters are the adrenaline strength moments like a woman lifting a car off her child. Those are the types of moments we tend to picture in DnD.

I think a desperate fighter who can fight giants one on one SHOULD be able to lift a car off someone. Or at least a carriage. And so even as the endurance gets ludicrous, it is those moments of immense strength that I'm looking for.

Speed does this too.


30ft every 6 seconds is 300ft per minute or 18,000ft per hour. just about 3 1/2 miles per hour. D&D over land travel says with this nice chart that is more or less right:
Distance Traveled per...

Pace	Minute	Hour	Day	Effect
Fast	400 feet	4 miles	30 miles	-5 penalty to passive Wisdom (Perception) scores
Normal	300 feet	3 miles	24 miles	—
Sl⁠ow	200 feet	2 miles	18 miles	Able to use stealth

so again US Marine (since I hear this one all the time) have to do a 1 1/2 mile run in 13 1/12 minutes my brother brags about doing it in under 10... I doubt he could keep that up for an hour let alone a day (I am sure he would tell me he could)
Google tells me a 10 mile run in 45 minutes is spitting distance to the world record.

okay so lets say I multi class barbarian with rogue, and am the elf with +5ft movement for a movement of 45 BUT cunning action double move to 90ft.so 3x the speed of the above chart so normal is 9 miles an hour and 72 miles a day...
lets say I am a slow guy, I only move 20 (not something D&D actually does you can't be slow but hey) then that would lower those numbers...

DnD generally says you can't constantly dash, so you would be looking at the 45 ft per turn, not the 90.

But again, I agree you are largely correct. Many marathon walkers cover 26 miles in 7 hours, faster and without breaks they can cover 30. Accounting for more difficult terrain than flat paved roads, it isn't unreasonable to assume 24 miles on a marching day and again, that fast march of 30. And that is your average speed.

One thing worth noting though, is you usually aren't going to have the party moving at different speeds, and again, the marching time is usually not something people care about. You don't feel fast if you can cover 40 miles in a day, even though that is actually very impressive and beyond what most people could even consider. You end up feeling fast with how you move in combat.

 

[Kinematics]

The proposed "strength and lifting" rules look interesting, though I want to look at it a bit closer.

PHB14 rules have a max lift of 30x your Str. Above 15x, your speed is reduced. The proposal uses Str^X * 2, with the progressive exponent based on size. I'll chart out an A → B comparison for lift capacity between PHB14 and the proposal, using a few notable Str values that players may reach.

Size	8 Str	16 Str	20 Str	25 Str
Tiny	120 → 16	240 → 32	300 → 40	375 → 50
Small	240 → 46	480 → 128	600 → 180	750 → 250
Medium	240 → 128	480 → 512	600 → 800	750 → 1250
Large	480 → 362	960 → 2048	1200 → 3578	1500 → 6250
Huge	960 → 1024	1920 → 8192	2400 → 16,000	3000 → 31,250
Gargantuan	1920 → 2896	3840 → 32,768	4800 → 71,554	6000 → 156,250

So immediately we see that tiny, and even small creatures have massively reduced lift capacity. While I'm not sure I'd argue about tiny, there are several small races that this would have a significant impact on.

Medium is weaker at 8 Str, but roughly equal or better at 16+ Str.

I'd probably adjust the multiplier for small creatures the same way the PHB does: Small creatures get the same lift calculations as medium creatures, and only drop when you go below that, to tiny. This would still be a nerf for tiny creatures, but it doesn't feel out of line with expectations for such a creature.

Large creatures (or effectively large, such as goliaths) get a decent buff. A 20 Str goliath barbarian could lift almost two tons. A Totem barbarian who took the bear aspect at 6th level could lift 7000 pounds. This feels decently epic.

Huge creatures get a massive boost. Wielding a tree trunk as a weapon is easily believable. A huge creature with 20 Str can easily lift an elephant, and even carry it around without much trouble if it's not carrying anything else (or gets another point of Str).

Gargantuan seems a bit excessive at first, but after some thought I can see it fitting some ludicrous feats of strength. In the 25-30 Str range, you could lift an entire house, or drag a massive galleon through the water. Maybe even lift the galleon if the GM were feeling generous.

~

So stuff on the higher end seems like it would work fine. The lower end has more trouble, but could mostly be fixed by giving small creatures the same ^2 as medium creatures, and putting tiny creatures at ^1.5.

There's also effects which double a creature's carrying capacity, such as the aforementioned barbarian feature. Since in the PHB, doubling your carrying capacity and counting as one size larger are exactly the same, the difference in wording doesn't really matter. However with this proposed scaling, it does.

Increasing an effective size category is more like a 4x multiplier on your carrying capacity (more or less), rather than a 2x one. I think all such effects which only state that your lift capacity is doubled should be treated as increasing your effective size category, if using this system.

 

[Krachek]

It’s been a while I see used these rules for strength by me or DMs I play with.
Describe, wait the DM to make a DC, roll. that’s it.
And I never check out to see if Hill giant was able to grap a tree to strike. they just do it.

For non physical skills I would suggest to don’t use ability modifier at all.
We already have skills using mixed or other ability, medecine Ask int and wis, deception can often be helped by intelligence. Why dont make those skills abilty less and use other mechanic to match usual math. That way a character trained in persuade would be effective no matter the class.

 

[Yaarel]

I prefer to avoid any need to guess somethings weight.

For example, if I look at moose, I have no clue how much that would weigh. If I look at a ship, I have no clue how much that would way. Supposing someone can pick up an hurl a horse-drawn wagon or carriage. No clue.

I knew the elephant was somewhere in the tons, but couldnt say 1 or 10, and when I looked it up, it is often somewhere in between on average. I should not need to consult google or wikipedia each time a player lifts something! As a DM, I really want to avoid guessing weights.

I strongly recommend referring to carrying capacity by size, not weight.



So typically:

A creature can carry one size less without encumbrance.

A powerful build can carry the same size without encumbrance.

"Giant Strength" means the ability to carry a Large or Huge load, without encumbrance.

An elephant can be Huge, a whale can be Gargantuan.



Even for irregular loads, like solid metal that might be 50 times heavier, it is more useful to say something like "load as if three sizes larger"

 

[Chaosmancer]

It’s been a while I see used these rules for strength by me or DMs I play with.
Describe, wait the DM to make a DC, roll. that’s it.
And I never check out to see if Hill giant was able to grap a tree to strike. they just do it.

Yes, you can just entirely free-form things with no rules, no guidelines, and just guessing. And this is how you'd be able to lift a cow and carry it one day, and be unable to pick up a statue because it is "too heavy".

Yes, I agree, the Hill Giant just has the tree. But if I'm going to force my players to carry about how much they can carry based on their strength... then I need to do the same for the hill giant. I need guidelines, or it all becomes too much whim.

For non physical skills I would suggest to don’t use ability modifier at all.
We already have skills using mixed or other ability, medecine Ask int and wis, deception can often be helped by intelligence. Why dont make those skills abilty less and use other mechanic to match usual math. That way a character trained in persuade would be effective no matter the class.

I disagree. This just makes mental scores even less important, making those saves worse. I just don't see a good way to make only dexterity and strength scores matter for skills and nothing else. At that point, redesign the entire skill system.