D&D 5E Worldbuilding: destruction and siege via Mold Earth?

[nevin]

the idea that it's the players fault for using a poorly designed mechanic to thier benefit, is a very toxic one to video games and rpg's. If you want to defend it then lets just call it bad game design.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

So, the druid, sorcerer and wizard cantrip, Mold Earth has a range of 30 ft, three options of effects on "a portion of dirt or stone that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube" and a first option that, "If you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away."

The cantrip's second and third options don't present a requirement for loose earth and can be interpreted to have a wider context for function:

• You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
• If the dirt or stone you target is on the ground, you cause it to become difficult terrain. Alternatively, you can cause the ground to become normal terrain if it is already difficult terrain. This change lasts for 1 hour.

It's the first option that, depending on interpretation, I think could be potentially world-breaking. Could you really excavate a 5 ft cube of settled soil and move it 5 ft away? What would be the implications for potential destruction in worldbuilding?

Stone buildings are typically formed on foundations, but what if you could repeatedly use the cantrip to rapidly excavate soil away from the perimeters? What if the structure was built on a slope or, worse, a motte? And then there's the other way that structures might be threatened by the cantrip wielders. In what circumstances could it be used to construct ramparts against buildings?

Could a 5ft cube of soil ever be loose? Personally, I'd consider that this might be difficult if the soil was damp as it could have a tendency to get squished altogether toward the bottom.

Speaking as an ex farmer, this really depends. If the soil is covered with grasses, then the top 2 - 3 inches (5 to 8 cm) of soil is a net of intertwined roots and soil that takes a bit of effort with a shovel or spade. Once that is cleared the next couple of feet can be very easy to move.
The key here is how much top soil there is before contact with the mud. Some places the topsoil can be a foot (30cm ) or less. Alluvial basins can have a huge amount of topsoil. Miosture, content and stones can have a large impact to digging with a spade or shovel. Soil with a lot of small stone flakes could be difficult to dig with tools and perhaps easy with Mold Earth.
I would expect that the level of the winter water table will have a big impact.

For adjudicating the spell the questions to answer is can mound earth cut the top sod. My inclination would be to say no, so it would only work if the top sod is broken up because the ground is already tilled or the sod has been broken up by a plough. This would still make the spell extraordinarily useful in road making.
Use a plough to break up the top sod and mold earth to clear to the compact clay below then add in your foundations.

However, when we consider the possibilities of moving loose earth, the implications are tremendous. Feasibly, it would be possible to successively excavate areas into successive 5 ft depths. You'd just need to keep excavating cubes from within a leveled area and then keep moving cubes along to fill in the gaps. If the area had a natural slope, however, the situation would be a whole lot easier. You'd just need to keep undermining a slope and let gravity do the rest.

Personally, though, I neither think that mold earth has the potential to move settled soil or necessarily even the potential to loosen it. The second and third functions of the cantrip allow the caster to temporarily: "... cause shapes, ... to appear on the dirt or stone" or to temporarily "cause it to become difficult terrain" or "Alternatively, ... normal terrain." The definition of mold is to "form (an object) out of malleable material" and I think that this is more immediately suggestive of squishing materials together rather than pulling bits apart. DM's discretion might be needed regarding the third use of mold earth as to any extent that it could be used for a function such as plowing. Could this function of the spell be used to loosen the top few inches of soil? That could depend on DM interpretation.

I am inclined to agree with you on the ability to immediately excavate compacted soils. However, if it can make soil or rock into difficult terrain then it can loosen soil. Cause shapes to appear on a soil surface or ripples to make difficult terrain often enough and you are breaking up the structure of the ground.
That is pretty much what a plough or a gang of men with pick do. A plough turns a flat field in to difficult terrain. So, it is a matter of time to manipulate the ground to make it loose enough to excavate.
Now the spell implies that the manipulation of the structure of the soil to make difficult terrain is temporary of there is a question if that make it loose or non-compacted for a subsequent use of Mold Earth within the hour to excavate that piece of ground.
One could make an argument either way in my opinion.

Ramping up from trench warfare.
The greatest worldbuilding effect that I can think of regarding mold earth would be its potential for assembling earthen ramparts during sieges. All it would take would be for a behind cover position to be secured say about 50 ft from a wall so as to allow a potential troop of first-level druids, sorcerers and wizards to begin piling up quantities of loose earth to a distance of say 20 ft from the wall. If the Romans were able to use ramps effectively with dry Judean rock in the siege of Masada, I'd imagine that similar techniques might find parallel usage in the worlds of D&D.

True that.

 

[Oofta]

Speaking as an ex farmer, this really depends. If the soil is covered with grasses, then the top 2 - 3 inches (5 to 8 cm) of soil is a net of intertwined roots and soil that takes a bit of effort with a shovel or spade. Once that is cleared the next couple of feet can be very easy to move.
The key here is how much top soil there is before contact with the mud. Some places the topsoil can be a foot (30cm ) or less. Alluvial basins can have a huge amount of topsoil. Miosture, content and stones can have a large impact to digging with a spade or shovel. Soil with a lot of small stone flakes could be difficult to dig with tools and perhaps easy with Mold Earth.
I would expect that the level of the winter water table will have a big impact.

For adjudicating the spell the questions to answer is can mound earth cut the top sod. My inclination would be to say no, so it would only work if the top sod is broken up because the ground is already tilled or the sod has been broken up by a plough. This would still make the spell extraordinarily useful in road making.
Use a plough to break up the top sod and mold earth to clear to the compact clay below then add in your foundations.


I am inclined to agree with you on the ability to immediately excavate compacted soils. However, if it can make soil or rock into difficult terrain then it can loosen soil. Cause shapes to appear on a soil surface or ripples to make difficult terrain often enough and you are breaking up the structure of the ground.
That is pretty much what a plough or a gang of men with pick do. A plough turns a flat field in to difficult terrain. So, it is a matter of time to manipulate the ground to make it loose enough to excavate.
Now the spell implies that the manipulation of the structure of the soil to make difficult terrain is temporary of there is a question if that make it loose or non-compacted for a subsequent use of Mold Earth within the hour to excavate that piece of ground.
One could make an argument either way in my opinion.

True that.

Dealing with root systems is a good point, one I had meant to bring up. Go anywhere that there's significant plant life that hasn't been disturbed for a while and you're likely to hit the same issue. Digging in a field or garden where the earth is regularly plowed and somewhere that has had plants growing on it for years undisturbed us likely to be significantly different. Again, I'd go back to can I easily move the dirt with my bare hands to qualify as loose soil.

Personally I would rule that since the difficult terrain is temporary that it doesn't really loosen the dirt. It's just a magical effect, loose dirt isn't enough more difficult to walk on than normal terrain to slow people down so I don't think we can assume it qualifies as loose. That, and how far does it go down? Muck that only goes down a few inches can make walking difficult. But, as you say, like everything else with this spell it's a DM's call.

 

[Umbran]

That's fair. But I don't see why, say, a wizard could not cast mold earth to an equivalent extent that they could cast firebolt or that an archer could fire arrows.

Well, that's exactly it. D&D is primarily a tactical scale game, not a strategic game. The rules are generally tactical timescales, not strategic ones.

Take the archer. By the rules an archer can shoot arrows over and over and over and over, forever. A fighter can swing a sword over and over forever. But, really, we all know know that's not how it works. An archer or swordfighter can do that for a short while, but they are going to get tired.

We don't have rules about exactly when the archer and swordfighter get tired. That doesn't mean that they never get tired. It means that the rules are designed to generate exciting fights with lots of action, and we say that over the course of a fight they won't get tired enough to impact performance.

Outside the course of a fight, however, those rules make less and less sense.

 

[overgeeked]

Yeah, a fair few people really want this cantrip to make a character a master earth bender. It does not. This mostly comes from skimming the spell and not actually reading it. I’ve had players rage quit games over their misreading of this spell.

Beyond the “loose earth” restriction (and no…structures are not built on loose earth), the next most commonly ignored restriction is:

that you can see

How far down into the dirt can you see? Not far. So you’re not pulling a 5ft cube out of the ground.

 

[greg kaye]

... for instance Large castles in our world like Dover have walls that go 20ft deep into the ground to make the walls stable. it's not a huge cost to go down another 20ft and make sure your walls are more than 20ft wide. Or build on rock. any of these non magical solutions make the spell useless. ...

Yeah, the spell is useless, for undermining siege applications, at least on the widely accepted interpretation that settled soils don't count as loose.

Magical repair abilities of lower level spells far exceed the magical destruction ability of anything below 7th level, and at 3rd level magic the spell wall of stone would be a attacking armies bane. no one has to go out on the wall at night and repair while hoping they don't get pincushioned. Just a few wall of stones and all the damage from the previous night is fixed.

Once DND moves beyond simple party combat what magic does vs what it would really do if intelligent creative beings were involved shows how minimilist and broken it really is. Really Things like cannons become easy peasy no black powder required.

Yeah, but not many fortifications would have a ninth-level druid, sorcerer or wizard available to cast wall of stone. But this spell would certainly have more use for those inside a castle who could use the existing structure as a foundation for future builds.

 

[nevin]

or mage... But I was talking about magical repair being far better than most spells below 7th level. but I did say third instead of 5th. So yes if your playing in a game with 7th level spells I'd expect a rich lord to have access to that kind of magic. A king or prince definitely would be able to call on that. But protection from arrows and shape stone change the game for keeping your walls up in a seige and they are much lower level.
I cant see using spells for foundation that's silly. It's so much cheaper to bring in the stone and just lay a massive foundation. or build it in a rocky area next to a mountain or on a mountain. Save that money for wards and glyphs, or a few fire breathing drake's to eat the enemy magic users.

thing is in a long term game I expect the magic to be fairly homogenous to a certain level. There may only be two or three old codgers that can cast 9th level spells but there will be a lot more who can cast 5th level spells. Running a game where only one side has 7th level magic and the other is playing whack a mole is just sad and pointless.

 

[greg kaye]

...
How far down into the dirt can you see? Not far. So you’re not pulling a 5ft cube out of the ground.

And, even if you can see down in a hole, mold earth only lets you, at best, manage loose material to a 5ft depth as per "If you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away."
I'd say that if you had "instantaneously" moved loose earth 5 feet vertically up a shaft, it would then, instantaneously, fall 5 ft back down.

An interpretation of excavate can potentially lead to a view that the movable, loose earth should be surrounded by other (loose) earth.

for instance 1
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
could be moved
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 _ 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
The spell states that, "you can have [no more than] two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time" and I'd interpret that, once you've excavated it and move it along the ground, when you deposit it, it wouldn't automatically collapse and so as to mostly fall back down the hole. I'd perhaps charitably interpret that keeping the effect active would somehow keep the material together and perhaps ready for you to move it again:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 _ 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
and even again and again and again and again
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 _ 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
then, perhaps you could turn your attention to the ground around the hole that had been left and perhaps this hole, if it is considered to be part of a previous instantaneous effect, hasn't collapsed all around.
Other material might then be moved forward.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1
8 7 6 5 4 3 _ 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
And again.... to any extent considered relevant.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1
9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
At any stage thereafter a new excavation and move could commence. Perhaps pile one would have collapsed but maybe pile two could overlay it from the side
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 2 1
9 8 7 6 5 4 3 _ 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
after a while you could get to something like this:
_ _ _ _ _ 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
h g f e d c b a 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
further material in some way could then be placed on top.
Maybe directly with material like 9;
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 9
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
h g f e d c b a 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Maybe with something like 7;
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 7
_ _ _ _ _ 9 8 _ 6 5 4 3 2 1
h g f e d c b a 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
or maybe with something from further back like x;
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ x
_ _ _ _ _ 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
h g f e d c b a 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
However it might work, in one way or another, magically moved loose earth might mount up.
But, all the same, it might be easier if loose earth could just be moved down a slope and along:
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
to
8 7 6 5 4 3 2
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

 

[overgeeked]

And, even if you can see down in a hole, mold earth only lets you, at best, manage loose material to a 5ft depth as per "If you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away."
I'd say that if you had "instantaneously" moved loose earth 5 feet vertically up a shaft, it would then, instantaneously, fall 5 ft back down.

An interpretation of excavate can potentially lead to a view that the movable, loose earth should be surrounded by other (loose) earth.

for instance 1
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
could be moved
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 _ 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
The spell states that, "you can have [no more than] two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time" and I'd interpret that, once you've excavated it and move it along the ground, when you deposit it, it wouldn't automatically collapse and so as to mostly fall back down the hole. I'd perhaps charitably interpret that keeping the effect active would somehow keep the material together and perhaps ready for you to move it again:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 _ 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
and even again and again and again and again
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 _ 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
then, perhaps you could turn your attention to the ground around the hole that had been left and perhaps this hole, if it is considered to be part of a previous instantaneous effect, hasn't collapsed all around.
Other material might then be moved forward.
1
8 7 6 5 4 3 _ 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
And again.... to any extent considered relevant.
1
9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
At any stage thereafter a new excavation and move could commence. Perhaps pile one would have collapsed but maybe pile two could overlay it from the side
2 1
9 8 7 6 5 4 3 _ 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
after a while you could get to something like this:
9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
h g f e d c b a 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
further material in some way could then be placed on top.
Maybe directly with material like 9;
9
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
h g f e d c b a 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Maybe with something like 7;
7
9 8 _ 6 5 4 3 2 1
h g f e d c b a 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
or maybe with something from further back like x;
x
9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
h g f e d c b a 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
However it might work, in one way or another, magically moved loose earth might mount up.
But, all the same, it might be easier if loose earth could just be moved down a slope and along:
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
to
8 7 6 5 4 3 2
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

To me, this comes down to most players, and the designers, wanting 5E to be a fantasy superheroes game…only some referees and most of the legacy mechanics push back against D&D as a fantasy superhero game. There’s also simulation vs power fantasy. This kind of analysis (yours in the quoted post) is simulation, while most players want the power fantasy. Hence the disconnect. Neither POV is right or wrong, but they are at odds. 5E is maddening because it tries to split the difference in completely unsatisfying ways. And if the designers want to let go of the simulation aspects and embrace the fantasy superhero angle, they need to drop a lot of the game’s sacred cows…which they’ll never do because of nostalgia and tradition. So the game is stuck in this lame middle ground. Most players and the designers seem to want fantasy superheroes but they’re stuck with a 50-year-old wargame faux-simulation chasis that simply cannot handle superheroes without huge rewrites…that some of the fans don’t really want and the designers are unwilling to make. Maybe that should be part of session zeros. Asking which side of simulation vs power fantasy the game will be on.

 

[AmandaBarbarian]

How far down into the dirt can you see? Not far. So you’re not pulling a 5ft cube out of the ground.

So far I have been on the page of "it depends on the DM" but this one seems down right hostile. "I can see the sand, so I move 5ft of it" "No, you can only see at most a few inches on top" isn't reading the spell at all.

My favorite use for the spell is setting up camp. Okay I'm going to take 2 minutes (20 rounds) and dig a bunch of 5ft holes, and I pile the dirt up on the other side of them making a 5ft dirt wall on the other side.