D&D 5E Worldbuilding: destruction and siege via Mold Earth?

[greg kaye]

So, the druid, sorcerer and wizard cantrip, Mold Earth has a range of 30 ft, three options of effects on "a portion of dirt or stone that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube" and a first option that, "If you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away."

The cantrip's second and third options don't present a requirement for loose earth and can be interpreted to have a wider context for function:

• You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
• If the dirt or stone you target is on the ground, you cause it to become difficult terrain. Alternatively, you can cause the ground to become normal terrain if it is already difficult terrain. This change lasts for 1 hour.

It's the first option that, depending on interpretation, I think could be potentially world-breaking. Could you really excavate a 5 ft cube of settled soil and move it 5 ft away? What would be the implications for potential destruction in worldbuilding?

Stone buildings are typically formed on foundations, but what if you could repeatedly use the cantrip to rapidly excavate soil away from the perimeters? What if the structure was built on a slope or, worse, a motte? And then there's the other way that structures might be threatened by the cantrip wielders. In what circumstances could it be used to construct ramparts against buildings?

Could a 5ft cube of soil ever be loose? Personally, I'd consider that this might be difficult if the soil was damp as it could have a tendency to get squished altogether toward the bottom.

However, when we consider the possibilities of moving loose earth, the implications are tremendous. Feasibly, it would be possible to successively excavate areas into successive 5 ft depths. You'd just need to keep excavating cubes from within a leveled area and then keep moving cubes along to fill in the gaps. If the area had a natural slope, however, the situation would be a whole lot easier. You'd just need to keep undermining a slope and let gravity do the rest.

Personally, though, I neither think that mold earth has the potential to move settled soil or necessarily even the potential to loosen it. The second and third functions of the cantrip allow the caster to temporarily: "... cause shapes, ... to appear on the dirt or stone" or to temporarily "cause it to become difficult terrain" or "Alternatively, ... normal terrain." The definition of mold is to "form (an object) out of malleable material" and I think that this is more immediately suggestive of squishing materials together rather than pulling bits apart. DM's discretion might be needed regarding the third use of mold earth as to any extent that it could be used for a function such as plowing. Could this function of the spell be used to loosen the top few inches of soil? That could depend on DM interpretation.

Ramping up from trench warfare.
The greatest worldbuilding effect that I can think of regarding mold earth would be its potential for assembling earthen ramparts during sieges. All it would take would be for a behind cover position to be secured say about 50 ft from a wall so as to allow a potential troop of first-level druids, sorcerers and wizards to begin piling up quantities of loose earth to a distance of say 20 ft from the wall. If the Romans were able to use ramps effectively with dry Judean rock in the siege of Masada, I'd imagine that similar techniques might find parallel usage in the worlds of D&D.

 

[Oofta]

It depends on the soil. A sandy beach is likely to be loose soil - that's why people can dig deep holes in an afternoon. Sadly, it's also why we hear occasionally about those people suffocating when the hole collapses on them.

But you don't put a building on soil like that. If the dirt is loose enough to be excavated by a cantrip, it's too loose to support a building. When built, there will be a foundation or other supports that go down far enough to provide support. Where I live the soil tends to be relatively loose, it's one of the reasons we have basements. We have to dig down a ways to get something solid to build the house on anyway. But go north up by the Lake Superior north shore? They just have to scrape a few inches of topsoil off before they build. Because all the soil they had was scraped off by the last set of glaciers and dumped where I live. Heck, even soil where people regularly walk will get pretty compacted.

As far as building the ramp, that's an interesting idea. But that just means someone inside the keep also has to have a cantrip to constantly disrupt the newly forming ramp.

 

[greg kaye]

It depends on the soil. A sandy beach is likely to be loose soil - that's why people can dig deep holes in an afternoon. Sadly, it's also why we hear occasionally about those people suffocating when the hole collapses on them.

But you don't put a building on soil like that. If the dirt is loose enough to be excavated by a cantrip, it's too loose to support a building. When built, there will be a foundation or other supports that go down far enough to provide support. Where I live the soil tends to be relatively loose, it's one of the reasons we have basements. We have to dig down a ways to get something solid to build the house on anyway. But go north up by the Lake Superior north shore? They just have to scrape a few inches of topsoil off before they build. Because all the soil they had was scraped off by the last set of glaciers and dumped where I live. Heck, even soil where people regularly walk will get pretty compacted.

As far as building the ramp, that's an interesting idea. But that just means someone inside the keep also has to have a cantrip to constantly disrupt the newly forming ramp.

Cities like Tel Aviv are built on sand dunes. It works because the packed sands are fairly rigid as long as they are undisturbed.

Even relatively squidgy typically feldspar-type clays can be built on though these wouldn't naturally fit the characterization of loose soil.

I can imagine druids skilled in nature and/or survival, using druidcraft to predict the weather and, getting to into position following rains to try to provoke avalanches. In general, I think that some external means or other needs to be found for loosening the earth for mold earth to function.

 

[Umbran]

"If you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away."
...
It's the first option that, depending on interpretation, I think could be potentially world-breaking. Could you really excavate a 5 ft cube of settled soil and move it 5 ft away?

You have swapped "settled soil" for "loose earth". And, the stuff under a major stone wall isn't going to be "settled". It is going to be packed. It is supporting tons of stone, after all.

However, when we consider the possibilities of moving loose earth, the implications are tremendous. Feasibly, it would be possible to successively excavate areas into successive 5 ft depths. You'd just need to keep excavating cubes from within a leveled area and then keep moving cubes along to fill in the gaps.

This starts to look like cantrip abuse. Every 5' you move dirt is a casting. You are talking about hundreds, or thousands of castings of the spell. Yes the rules allow a caster to use a cantrip once per round, but that's in the implied context of an action-adventure scene that's a minute or two long, not hours or days of digging.

I would not lightly take the rules for PC spellcasters on combat timescales and extend them to hours and days of working.

 

[Oofta]

Cities like Tel Aviv are built on sand dunes. It works because the packed sands are fairly rigid as long as they are undisturbed.

Even relatively squidgy typically feldspar-type clays can be built on though these wouldn't naturally fit the characterization of loose soil.

I can imagine druids skilled in nature and/or survival, using druidcraft to predict the weather and, getting to into position following rains to try to provoke avalanches. In general, I think that some external means or other needs to be found for loosening the earth for mold earth to function.

But as you say, it works because the sand has been compacted.

I guess it's always just going to be a DM's call on what loose earth really means. To me? It means something I could scoop by hand or with little effort if shoveling. If I have to stand on the shovel or use a pickaxe, it's not "loose".

 

[greg kaye]

You have swapped "settled soil" for "loose earth". And, the stuff under a major stone wall isn't going to be "settled". It is going to be packed. It is supporting tons of stone, after all.
...

I hoped to dispute that they can be swapped:

... Could you really excavate a 5 ft cube of settled soil and move it 5 ft away? What would be the implications for potential destruction in worldbuilding?
...
Personally, though, I neither think that mold earth has the potential to move settled soil or necessarily even the potential to loosen it. ...

This starts to look like cantrip abuse. Every 5' you move dirt is a casting. ...

That's fair. But I don't see why, say, a wizard could not cast mold earth to an equivalent extent that they could cast firebolt or that an archer could fire arrows.

 

[greg kaye]

...
As far as building the ramp, that's an interesting idea. But that just means someone inside the keep also has to have a cantrip to constantly disrupt the newly forming ramp.

That's a good point, Perhaps it's just clerical strongholds like the one in Masada of strongholds in valleys that might still be in trouble.

 

[nevin]

So, the druid, sorcerer and wizard cantrip, Mold Earth has a range of 30 ft, three options of effects on "a portion of dirt or stone that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube" and a first option that, "If you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away."

The cantrip's second and third options don't present a requirement for loose earth and can be interpreted to have a wider context for function:

• You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
• If the dirt or stone you target is on the ground, you cause it to become difficult terrain. Alternatively, you can cause the ground to become normal terrain if it is already difficult terrain. This change lasts for 1 hour.

It's the first option that, depending on interpretation, I think could be potentially world-breaking. Could you really excavate a 5 ft cube of settled soil and move it 5 ft away? What would be the implications for potential destruction in worldbuilding?

Stone buildings are typically formed on foundations, but what if you could repeatedly use the cantrip to rapidly excavate soil away from the perimeters? What if the structure was built on a slope or, worse, a motte? And then there's the other way that structures might be threatened by the cantrip wielders. In what circumstances could it be used to construct ramparts against buildings?

Could a 5ft cube of soil ever be loose? Personally, I'd consider that this might be difficult if the soil was damp as it could have a tendency to get squished altogether toward the bottom.

However, when we consider the possibilities of moving loose earth, the implications are tremendous. Feasibly, it would be possible to successively excavate areas into successive 5 ft depths. You'd just need to keep excavating cubes from within a leveled area and then keep moving cubes along to fill in the gaps. If the area had a natural slope, however, the situation would be a whole lot easier. You'd just need to keep undermining a slope and let gravity do the rest.

Personally, though, I neither think that mold earth has the potential to move settled soil or necessarily even the potential to loosen it. The second and third functions of the cantrip allow the caster to temporarily: "... cause shapes, ... to appear on the dirt or stone" or to temporarily "cause it to become difficult terrain" or "Alternatively, ... normal terrain." The definition of mold is to "form (an object) out of malleable material" and I think that this is more immediately suggestive of squishing materials together rather than pulling bits apart. DM's discretion might be needed regarding the third use of mold earth as to any extent that it could be used for a function such as plowing. Could this function of the spell be used to loosen the top few inches of soil? That could depend on DM interpretation.

Ramping up from trench warfare.
The greatest worldbuilding effect that I can think of regarding mold earth would be its potential for assembling earthen ramparts during sieges. All it would take would be for a behind cover position to be secured say about 50 ft from a wall so as to allow a potential troop of first-level druids, sorcerers and wizards to begin piling up quantities of loose earth to a distance of say 20 ft from the wall. If the Romans were able to use ramps effectively with dry Judean rock in the siege of Masada, I'd imagine that similar techniques might find parallel usage in the worlds of D&D.

no. you can do patterns you can't structurally change the earth the 5 to 50 feet deep it would require to cause that kind of destruction. especiall with a cantrip. Now with the move earth spell, assuming the castle isn't built on Bedrock. or deep layers of rock like most castles are you can move up to 40 ft of earth up to 20ft deep. Now engineers and lords and ladies will know this and I'm going to say that most well built keeps would be immune. for instance Large castles in our world like Dover have walls that go 20ft deep into the ground to make the walls stable. it's not a huge cost to go down another 20ft and make sure your walls are more than 20ft wide. Or build on rock. any of these non magical solutions make the spell useless. Historically most Earthquakes don't bring down castle walls and since we are talking about magic, the spells shape stone, mend, and others that can be used to fix stone would be far more effective than the ones to destroy them. With the added benefit that they are lower level so you'll have more casters available to repair.

Magical repair abilities of lower level spells far exceed the magical destruction ability of anything below 7th level, and at 3rd level magic the spell wall of stone would be a attacking armies bane. no one has to go out on the wall at night and repair while hoping they don't get pincushioned. Just a few wall of stones and all the damage from the previous night is fixed.

Once DND moves beyond simple party combat what magic does vs what it would really do if intelligent creative beings were involved shows how minimilist and broken it really is. Really Things like cannons become easy peasy no black powder required.

 

[nevin]

You have swapped "settled soil" for "loose earth". And, the stuff under a major stone wall isn't going to be "settled". It is going to be packed. It is supporting tons of stone, after all.



This starts to look like cantrip abuse. Every 5' you move dirt is a casting. You are talking about hundreds, or thousands of castings of the spell. Yes the rules allow a caster to use a cantrip once per round, but that's in the implied context of an action-adventure scene that's a minute or two long, not hours or days of digging.

I would not lightly take the rules for PC spellcasters on combat timescales and extend them to hours and days of working.

cantrip abus is a silly term just simply because intelligent creatures push everything to the limit.

However there would have to be rules for magical exhaustion if you were going to do such things and what would really happen is mage would send low level apprentices to do the dirty work. They'd get murdered by archers or real mages , summoned creatures etc and you'd be back to square one. Chances of some mage standing there moving 5 foot cubes of dirt all day long and surviving more than an hour are on par with surviving a nuclear blast. So as DM I'd smile and say....You can surely try......

 

[Umbran]

cantrip abus is a silly term just simply because intelligent creatures push everything to the limit.

I mean it is an abuse from a game design perspective.