D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?


log in or register to remove this ad

No, you probably will not.
4th and 8th level goes to getting dex to 20, 12th and 16th level goes to wis to 20, and with new option, 19th level goes to raising dex again to 22.

that leaves you with grand total of 1st level feat.

ability scores should be capped at 18.
Yes, oversight by me.

I think they should remove the level 19 upgrade. This makes it indeed worse than before.

I also agree with capping at 18.

I'd also thought about changing ability score increase to +2 to 1 stat and +1 to a different one.

Or a different feat that explicitely raises 3 stats by 1 to help MAD classes.

Maybe ability score increase should just be: raise your class based primary abilities by 1 and another 1 by an additional 1.
 
Last edited:

increase in a damage die for unarmed is a mastery in itself.
They still should get an upgrade to be able to do a shove or grapple and deal damage, at a certain level. But otherwise I agree.
I feel the Monk is better than a lot of online discourse gives it credit for.
Definitely.
No, you probably will not.
4th and 8th level goes to getting dex to 20, 12th and 16th level goes to wis to 20, and with new option, 19th level goes to raising dex again to 22.

that leaves you with grand total of 1st level feat.

ability scores should be capped at 18.
I’ve never met anyone IRL who thinks like this about the game. Most players don’t optimize.
 

The monk in my experience was not behind the curve levels 1-4. Their damage output kept up with two weapon fighters/rangers with the two weapon fighting style - which was actively ahead of great weapon wielders without GWM. It was only at level 5 that the two weapon fighters fell off. As for AC? Levels 1-4 you were looking at studded leather armour anyway.

Level 5 of course they fell back because twf meant more with a greatsword or even a longsword with duelist style than with twin scimitars. But they got Stunning Fist which was OP.

The monk's real problem was that levels 7-13 were soggy with almost no offensive scaling and no non-situational defensive scaling.
(evasion and poison immunity are both great when they are needed but you can go entire adventures with neither coming up). Level 7 is definitely not soggy, level 11 subclass abilities have been polished, and level 13's ability to return Eldritch Blasts to sender covers huge swathes of things while bonus actions to remove conditions are much better than full actions.

I've not seen anyone pick up on the stealth nerf to Stunning Fist that with better feats you're less likely to pump wis (and 17/14/14 is going to be the default starting stats for most although 16/16/13 is still possible).

Nor have I seen anyone pick up on the stealth buff to survivability from the Sap property; sap is a mediocre choice for fighters because in a duel if you hit someone with a sap weapon a second time it does nothing. For a monk once you've hit someone with your mace you switch to unarmed attacks for more damage.
 

Yes, oversight by me.

I think they should remove the level 19 upgrade. This makes it indeed worse than before.

I also agree with capping at 18.

I'd also thought about changing ability score increase to +2 to 1 stat and +1 to a different one.

Or a different feat that explicitely raises 3 stats by 1 to help MAD classes.

Maybe ability score increase should just be: raise your class based primary abilities by 1 and another 1 by an additional 1.
I'd rather them just boost the standard array to 17/16/15/12/10/8, and adjust point-buy/rolling methods to compensate.
 

I'd rather them just boost the standard array to 17/16/15/12/10/8, and adjust point-buy/rolling methods to compensate.
They aren't going to cap ability scores at 18; people like buffs, not nerfs, and WotC already want to raise the top end for ability scores to 22 at high levels. So setting that aside, this seems like a semi-viable alternative.

But +6 is way too much of a boost, IMO. I could see 16/15/13/12/10/8 to help out MAD classes and let them pick the occasional feat that isn't just an ASI.
 

They aren't going to cap ability scores at 18; people like buffs, not nerfs, and WotC already want to raise the top end for ability scores to 22 at high levels. So setting that aside, this seems like a semi-viable alternative.

But +6 is way too much of a boost, IMO. I could see 16/15/13/12/10/8 to help out MAD classes and let them pick the occasional feat that isn't just an ASI.
"Too much" is kind of fungible; you could start people with all 20s and it would really only be a minor boost to effectiveness. (It would obviously have gameplay issues in the sense that it doesn't allow for active choice, can't use stats to signal play priorities or differentiate characters, etc.) Tertiary stats simply don't matter that much in terms of power.

And yes, my entire point is that every character, SAD or MAD, should be able to pick feats without feeling tension between mathematical effectiveness and building to character concept. Games should always be designed so that the fun options and the most effective options are one and the same.
 

The monk in my experience was not behind the curve levels 1-4. Their damage output kept up with two weapon fighters/rangers with the two weapon fighting style - which was actively ahead of great weapon wielders without GWM. It was only at level 5 that the two weapon fighters fell off. As for AC? Levels 1-4 you were looking at studded leather armour anyway.
They can keep up with the damage curve, for a few rounds, anyway. But are much squishier than other melee types and don't offer exceptional utility, so their niche is unclear. Or use their ki for patient defence to keep up with survivability, while falling off on damage.

Question: does any version of an ideal party composition from levels 1-4 currently feature a monk?

Level 5 of course they fell back because twf meant more with a greatsword or even a longsword with duelist style than with twin scimitars. But they got Stunning Fist which was OP.
I think Stunning Strike is a bit overrated; it gets spammed because monks don't have many options, and when it works it is fantastic. It typically has a low DC due to monks being MAD, so it gets resisted a lot, leading to rapid resource depletion. And it makes monks boring - one thing I am currently enjoying about playing a Way of Mercy monk is having a decent alternative use for ki, which most monk sub-classes lack.

So thus far playtest monks are gaining +1 damage to their martial arts die, improved step of the wind, and a big nerf to their signature ability, stunning strike. Like, we can debate whether this is an overall buff, nerf, or wash but I'm not seeing much here that will move monks out of being the definitive bottom echelon class, at least not in levels 1-6.

The monk's real problem was that levels 7-13 were soggy with almost no offensive scaling and no non-situational defensive scaling.
(evasion and poison immunity are both great when they are needed but you can go entire adventures with neither coming up). Level 7 is definitely not soggy, level 11 subclass abilities have been polished, and level 13's ability to return Eldritch Blasts to sender covers huge swathes of things while bonus actions to remove conditions are much better than full actions.

I don't think that level 7 is nearly as amazing as others do, but that's probably because our group is very liberal with the length of short rests (it's narrative driven) and don't often run a lot of back-to-back encounters. But what actually improves for monks during these levels? As the base class you can get di back with a much shorter rest, once and...what else? Self Restoration is basically a nerf, and everything else is a wash. You do get a better sub-class feature at level 11, all of which have to do with mobility.

So...play a monk so that by level 11 you can live the dream of being the fast skirmishing warrior that WotC are clearly telegraphing as the class fantasy? They also tell us that 96% of campaigns end by level 10...

I've not seen anyone pick up on the stealth nerf to Stunning Fist that with better feats you're less likely to pump wis (and 17/14/14 is going to be the default starting stats for most although 16/16/13 is still possible).

Nor have I seen anyone pick up on the stealth buff to survivability from the Sap property; sap is a mediocre choice for fighters because in a duel if you hit someone with a sap weapon a second time it does nothing. For a monk once you've hit someone with your mace you switch to unarmed attacks for more damage.
I see weapon mastery abilities as a wash, since every martial class is getting them. If anything, they are overall a nerf to monks, since monk unarmed attacks won't get to use them.
 

Way of the Elements has gone from being arguably the worst sub-class in the game to arguably being in the bottom three, so is that an upgrade?

Level 3: Elementalism - this is similar to the previous Elemental Attunement - I'll let others argue about whether it is better or worse. I don't think it is going to be super impactful.

Elemental strikes now lets you deal different damage types, occasionally useful, and lets your unarmed strikes attack at range, like having a reach weapon, or push an opponent, like having a weapon mastery. So...kind of like letting your unarmed strikes have a weapon mastery. Which they should already have because they are a monk's primary weapons.

Level 6: Environmental Burst. For 2 di you get to do a small AoE. This is similar in strength to a level 1 spell but you get it at level 6, at which point others in your party are doing things like fireball. Be still my heart.

Level 11: Step of the Wind now gives you a fly or swim speed for 10 minutes. You can already run on water or up vertical surfaces, but flying is always good to have ready access to. You used to get it at level 11 anyway, but wrapping it in with SotW is a big improvement.

Level 17: Elemental Epitome: elemental damage resistance, which is good, another buff to SotW, and a small damage boost.

So the sub-class has gone from having a bunch of overpriced spells it can use at levels way past when casters get them, to having a few weak elemental effects wrapped into the base class. It's still terrible but now much less complicated.

Yes Unarmed Strikes should have their own weapon master.
 


Remove ads

Top