D&D (2024) Weapon Mastery + Cunning Strike+ Battle Master

[Chaosmancer]

most of BM maneuvers could be at-will if you remove added damage.

That is basically how I created my combat arts rule set

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Because some manoeuvres like tripping attack stomp on feats. Because no action cost at wills might create multiclass cheese. If topple does it anyway then I doubt it would even make the cut unless you want every fighter to have it on every weapon.

I like there being mulitple different ways to inflict the same condition/status effect. Weapon Mastery, Maneuvers, Feats, etc.

But is it too powerful for one PC to have multiple potential ways to knock someone prone on the same attack?

Weapon Mastery: Topple
Battlemaster Maneuver: Trip Attack

 

[Kurotowa]

I like there being mulitple different ways to inflict the same condition/status effect. Weapon Mastery, Maneuvers, Feats, etc.

But is it too powerful for one PC to have multiple potential ways to knock someone prone on the same attack?

Weapon Mastery: Topple
Battlemaster Maneuver: Trip Attack

Huh, that's a point to consider. Do the Devs want us doubling up on condition saves? Do they even want us stacking different possible conditions, but forcing multiple saves off a single attack? Because I can see that being a design concern.

Yes, Rogues get Cunning Action on top of Weapon Mastery. But the Rogue's limited weapon list heavily restricts what Mastery options they have access to, so it's not a serious problem. But a BM Fighter piling maneuvers on top of Masteries might run into some issues. Does that mean we'll see a major redesign of maneuvers? Especially now that Cunning Action is the same thing but better?

I hadn't thought about it before, but now I wouldn't be surprised if we did.

 

[Pauln6]

Level up splits out pushing and knockdown into different things and allows for pushing more than 5 feet. In that instance, you can see some more combinations, including some with no saves.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Because some manoeuvres like tripping attack stomp on feats. Because no action cost at wills might create multiclass cheese. If topple does it anyway then I doubt it would even make the cut unless you want every fighter to have it on every weapon.

They already have those abilities. The rogue is getting them at-will.

There’s no need to make them cost action economy. At worst, you just let the BM do them in place of an attack, and spend a die to do them in addition to an attack. Bringing the bonus action into it is completely unneeded.

 

[Scott Christian]

Since when does "beer and pretzel game" mean "fat drunk"? I always was under the impression that it referred to a relaxed, combat-only style of game, that didn't care about optimization or much about plot. I think you really went from zero to a thousand there with the accusations man.

As for your points...

1) Combat doesn't go faster if you have a wizard, druid, cleric and then you pick a champion fighter. Sure, you can speed up your turn, but you aren't speeding up the entire combat. In addition to being unable to control what classes other people pick, you have OTHER classes that are equally fast. The Barbarian and Rogue can take fast turns, same with paladins and rangers. If you just want a fast turn, you aren't limited to just the champion fighter.

2) Has nothing to do with class. Everyone can do this. Stop trying to peddle "I have no options" as "I have the freedom to try new things". Everyone has that freedom. Most of them ALSO have options.

3) This has nothing to do with your class. People who play wizards can sit and listen to other players. Seriously man, you are associating player behavior with class like it is some zodiac sign. People who play other classes aren't combat-perfection obssesed jerks who won't listen to your RP.

4) And the same thing. I'm a heavy RPer. I play a lot of classes. Just because I play paladins and druids doesn't suddenly mean I don't RP.

You seem to have just associated "I play a champion fighter" with "I'm a good player who cares about the story and world" and that's just a bit gross.

I'll try to say this clearer, since the points you bring up completely ignore my claim, and instead invent a fictitious one, that you then argue against.

Claim: Some players that play the champion do so because they like not having a lot of options. For them, it frees up their minds to think about other things, such as being creative with the environment or their inventory. Your claim is to remove that option for those players. I disagree.

All those things you said up there about combat not speeding up, but somehow it does, but only for one player. That still speeds it up. About everyone having freedom. I have never suggested otherwise. I stated exactly what my claim is. No where in there does it state players don't have freedom. Some players have more freedom when their options are limited. And again, I have never said wizards can't RP. Some players though, RP better when they have fewer options. You are making up claims that I am not promoting and arguing against them.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'll try to say this clearer, since the points you bring up completely ignore my claim, and instead invent a fictitious one, that you then argue against.

Claim: Some players that play the champion do so because they like not having a lot of options. For them, it frees up their minds to think about other things, such as being creative with the environment or their inventory. Your claim is to remove that option for those players. I disagree.

All those things you said up there about combat not speeding up, but somehow it does, but only for one player. That still speeds it up. About everyone having freedom. I have never suggested otherwise. I stated exactly what my claim is. No where in there does it state players don't have freedom. Some players have more freedom when their options are limited. And again, I have never said wizards can't RP. Some players though, RP better when they have fewer options. You are making up claims that I am not promoting and arguing against them.

You know, stating that you've never suggested otherwise would go over better... if you hadn't suggested otherwise. Such as:

I disagree. It's common sense related to time. If a player has seventeen options, and they are trying to determine which one is best, they need to belay their attention from the players to their options. It has even been some people's argument on this thread that the caster likes to think outside the box, they like to come up with creative solutions. Thinking and coming up with creative solutions requires time and brain power. Hence, removing their attention from the other players role play.

or

Nothing, I have seen wizards do creative stuff with spells, and it boils down to DM's permission, just like it does with a champion that utilizes something in their environment. But there is a difference between the two: one specifically states what it can do (wizard spell), the other does not. Once you have a stated text, rules or flavor, I think what you will find is most players use the stated text as is. Some don't and that is cool. But most of the time when I see someone cast sleep, it is specifically to make a group of baddies sleep. Sure, the clever one uses it to put to sleep the orphan kids so they don't wake up when the battle wages outside their window. But, most, even if given that opportunity, do not. They think, how can I kill the aggressor, not how can I make sure these kids don't witness this. The reason is because the spells tell you to do this or that.

Or how about

I am not going to throw any player under the bus, or wagon in this case, but based on my experience, I have never not seen it happen. Heck, even the so called "professionals" are constantly scanning their character sheets and resources for the things they can do. Now, take into account that:

• Many players just don't (or can't) memorize their character
• Players that decide they want to do "the best" thing so given how combat changes not per round, but per turn, they adjust and readjust, which might involve looking
• Some players face analysis paralysis

I think it's fair when you take these things into account that not all tables and players are the same. Heck, even one of the Critical Roll cast had to constantly look up their attack modifier - every single time. So it seems to me to be a very unfair statement that players should simply "know their stuff." Should they? Yes. Do most? No.

And then

Of course they can deliver these things. The point is - some players choose to craft these more carefully. Most players can make a joke or come up with a line to say. In my experience, most players don't weave foreshadowing or directly tie it to their personality, bond, ideal, or flaw. For most, that takes some mental effort. As far as speeches go, I do not believe most players try to think of them while playing, and it often shows. But, if you give them a scenario and let them craft something - it shows.

That was the point.

This last one is particularly egregious to me, because the chain of discussion traces back to you claiming that people play champion fighters to "spend the time crafting their next-best line, pun, or speech for their turn, instead of deciding whether to spend points to trip an opponent". You are directly stating that MOST players don't put thought or effort into their RP, but that champion fighter players are the exception, because instead of thinking about the battle in front of them, they are crafting RP and that's why they picked a champion fighter. This isn't me making up things, this is me looking at what you said and claimed.

And, if you want to instead claim that people pick the Champion fighter because they prefer to have fewer choices and options... well, why doesn't the Samurai work? For 10 levels, the Samurai's ONLY ability that isn't skills or saves, is to get advantage on attacks. And if three times per day deciding when to have advantage on their turn is far too much decision making... why can't they just decide they will always use it on the first turn of combat and make it not a decision? Or what about the Bear Totem Barbarian? The ONLY choice is whether or not to rage, and then you just always reckless attack. This is a single decision. And frankly, I know a single decision or two is perfectly fine for that champion fighter only player. Why? Because action surge and second wind and indomitable are all ALSO decisions.

And I don't want to ruin other people's fun, I don't. That's why when I made my combat arts system, it was opt-in, you don't need to use it if you don't want. But there are a lot of us that look at the fighter and see that it isn't stacking up, and every time we try and do something to increase our fun, we get this response that OTHER people's fun, people who don't want to play 99% of the rest of the game, but only want to play the Champion Fighter, means that we can't make the fighter match the standards of the rest of the game.

But, we also... have a solution. Why not take the Warrior and the Expert from Tasha's, and use those for the simple class? You can even take the Spellcaster for a simple magic-user. Then you can still play an ultra simple class which doesn't even have a subclass choice, and everyone else can fix the fighter. Isn't that a better solution for all of us?

 

[mellored]

I bet $10 right now the BM has some at-will maneuver juice of some kind, and does it harder and better when they spend dice.

Weapon expertise is at-will maneuvers...

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Weapon expertise is at-will maneuvers...

It very clearly isn’t the same thing as at-will BM manuevers.

Changing your ability to push into the ability to slow or whatever is not the same thing as trying to disarm a target in place of an attack, alongside a couple other such abilities, each of which can be upgraded by spending a die from a limited pool.

Which weapon mastery lets your ally move safely? Which one goads enemies into attacking you?

And it’s a level 7 feature. Level 7 is a bit late to be getting concept defining abilities. This is level 3 stuff.

 

[mellored]

It very clearly isn’t the same thing as at-will BM manuevers.

Changing your ability to push into the ability to slow or whatever is not the same thing as trying to disarm a target in place of an attack, alongside a couple other such abilities, each of which can be upgraded by spending a die from a limited pool.

Which weapon mastery lets your ally move safely? Which one goads enemies into attacking you?

And it’s a level 7 feature. Level 7 is a bit late to be getting concept defining abilities. This is level 3 stuff.

There are 9 masteries and 23 battle master maneuver.

Obviously not all of them are going lt be covered. Not unless each weapon got it's own thing (i.e. whip gets disarm).