D&D General Extra Credits: The History of D&D Hasbro Refused to Learn

[Lanefan]

It depends entirely on what parts of the AD&D systems and subsystems you're using and at what point in the line's history you're talking about. All books, all options, at the end of the line's life...yes, it's an absolute nightmare. But the AD&D initiative system as written in the PHB is dead simple: both sides roll 1d6, high roll wins. Hasted goes first; slowed goes last. That's it. That's what we always used. Never tacked on extra nonsense.

Side-based rather than individual initiative is a problem in itself, even more so when each participant is committed to pre-declared actions.

AD&D PHB p104: "The initiative check is typically made with 2 six-sided dice, 1d6 for the party, and another of a different size or color for the creatures encountered. This check is made each round of play where first action is a factor. Because a round is a full minute long, dexterity seldom is a factor in the determination of which side acts first. However, if one group is slowed or hasted, or one or more members of the group are, the initiative will always go to the non-slowed or hasted side. In most other cases, the group with the higher die score will always act first. For effects of initiative in fighting, see COMBAT hereafter."

The bolded shows two aspects that have unfortunately been lost over time (and may well have been commonly ignored even in the day): 1 - re-roll initiative each round, and 2 - dexterity doesn't matter. IMO both of these are vital components to any init. system.

As written, this also makes both Slow and Haste way too powerful; in that affecting one member of a group gives the whole group that (dis-)advantage.

 

[overgeeked]

Side-based rather than individual initiative is a problem in itself, even more so when each participant is committed to pre-declared actions.

The bolded shows two aspects that have unfortunately been lost over time (and may well have been commonly ignored even in the day): 1 - re-roll initiative each round, and 2 - dexterity doesn't matter. IMO both of these are vital components to any init. system.

As written, this also makes both Slow and Haste way too powerful; in that affecting one member of a group gives the whole group that (dis-)advantage.

Sure, not the most balanced system, but it still works and is dead simple. It's not some non-Euclidean labyrinthine nightmare.

I prefer side-based initiative because the slower thinking players can have more time to think without the pressure of a set turn order and it allows the players to come up with fun strategies that would break a set initiative order. PC1 wants to crouch down behind some monster so that PC2 will have an easier time of pushing it over. If their initiatives are not in the "right order" things like that are impossible. I'd rather err on the side of players doing what they want. I like that this version makes haste and slow powerful. To each their own.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't think 13th Age ever was a top 5 rpg, Numenera briefly was.

I'm sure 4E has outsikdcevery other RPG not called D&D though. And it's plausible Pathfinder outsold it at some point in time which was what the claim is about.

Outsold, sure, both at various specific times and over its total lifespan. No argument there.

What I was pointing out was that numbers* from 2021 - i.e. long after most people had stopped caring - vs some other significant-but-never-dominant systems were being rather curiously referenced as a measure of 4e's success.

All those numbers show is that 4e has a small but loyal ongoing following; which can truthfully be said of pretty much any system worth its salt from any era.

* - and note these were play numbers, not sales numbers.

 

[darjr]

Lisa Stevens certainly knew how high Pathfinder sales were at the time.

She had no clue what D&D sales were at the time. She's also a bit biased towards promoting the company she owns.

You don't trust Teos? I don't trust Lisa.

The myth continues . . .

I trust Teos. I just think he’s wrong. Let’s not go to this level please.

 

[Zardnaar]

That’s hyperbolic. I trust Teos. I just think he’s wrong. Let’s not go to this level please.

I think he was just debunking the internet rumor mill that Pathfinder outsold 4E. Paizo themselves never claimed than.

By most accounts 4E also had a good launch tge collapse came later. 2E and 3E both sold hundreds of thousands if phb tear 1 4E likely followed similar pattern. That's enough to pretty much outsell every other RPG with the odd exception like that Pokémon one.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Not sire if it's still around and it's deep into wall of text.
Jonathan Tweet Grandmother Fish would be the interview though it's a book he wrote.

If you can't quote it, you shouldn't repeat it.

 

[darjr]

I think he was just debunking the internet rumor mill that Pathfinder outsold 4E. Paizo themselves never claimed than.

By most accounts 4E also had a good launch tge collapse came later. 2E and 3E both sold hundreds of thousands if phb tear 1 4E likely followed similar pattern. That's enough to pretty much outsell every other RPG with the odd exception like that Pokémon one.

At the end of 4e it may have. And probably did in retail. We have actual numbers. Sure it’s a survey. Also Lisa Stephens has a quote to that somewhere.

I don’t think anyone was legitimately claiming that PF outsold 4e overall.

 

[overgeeked]

PF vs 4E sales.

In the Features tab at top there's a "Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present" tab. Therein it specifically says that "These are not based on actual sales figures. With very few exceptions, sales figures are not available for any of these products."

This is likely the origin of the rumor. But we don't have actual hard sales numbers either way so it's unlikely we'll ever resolve this.

At the end of 4e it may have. And probably did in retail. We have actual numbers. Sure it’s a survey. Also Lisa Stephens has a quote to that somewhere.

I don’t think anyone was legitimately claiming that PF outsold 4e overall.

Where are the actual numbers posted?

 

[Scribe]

If you can't quote it, you shouldn't repeat it.

How to wipe out the internet in one easy step.

 

[darjr]

PF vs 4E sales.

In the Features tab at top there's a "Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present" tab. Therein it specifically says that "These are not based on actual sales figures. With very few exceptions, sales figures are not available for any of these products."

This is likely the origin of the rumor. But we don't have actual hard sales numbers either way so it's unlikely we'll ever resolve this.

Where are the actual numbers posted?

Of the icv2 survey? I believe so, in their private for pay magazine. The rankings were made public.