D&D General Extra Credits: The History of D&D Hasbro Refused to Learn

[Staffan]

In the linked Twitter thread, Owen Stephens said that he and Chris Sims had both seen the internal sales numbers for both Pathfinder and 4E, and that nobody who had would disagree that 4E sold better. I don't got a dog in the hunt (barely played 4E, never touched Pathfinder), but the insiders who had access to the real numbers on both sides seem to be in agreement.

Right. I don't think anyone's claiming that Pathfinder overall sold more than 4e, only that it did for a period of about 2-3 years when Wizards had basically shelved 4e anyway. For one thing, I would expect that a significant portion of Pathfinder customers had at one point bought at least the 4e core rules (and found them wanting).

Also, while 4e's numbers would get a boost from mass market sales, Paizo sells a lot via their own web site. Probably not as much as WOTC does via toy stores and the like, but nothing to sneeze at either.

 

[Blue]

Jonathan Tweet in an interview also claimed 4E was a disaster. You know tge guy who designed it.

Quick point of order, Jonathan Tweet was one of the three lead designers of D&D 3.0, along with Monte Cook and Skip Williams. As far as I know and can find, he did not work on 4e. The Lead Designer of 4e was Rob Heinsoo, and the two of them later worked together on 13th Age, but that's as close as he got.

There's a number of sources out there, here's one: Jonathan Tweet - Wikipedia

Not sure if he thought 4e was a disaster or not, but even if so he didn't proclaim it from a designer's seat.

He's got plenty great RPG credits out there like Ars Magica and the aforementioned 13th Age, no need to include ones he hasn't worked on.

 

[darjr]

I’m not sure what to think of Owens twitter comment. I respect and trust him but I dint think he was talking about the time frame we are. That is the tail end of 4e. At least when it comes to a direct comparison of PF sales to 4e sales at the end of its run. Owen last worked for WotC in 2001. Right?

I think he meant, like Chris Sims first tweet, overall sales.

 

[Parmandur]

I’m not sure what to think of Owens twitter comment. I respect and trust him but I dint think he was talking about the time frame we are. That is the tail end of 4e. At least when it comes to a direct comparison of PF sales to 4e sales at the end of its run. Owen last worked for WotC in 2001. Right?

I think he meant, like Chris Sims first tweet, overall sales.

Per LinkedIn, yes. I was juat goijg off of what he said in that Tweet, though Chris Sims IIRC is in the position of having known both for ghe televant timeframes.

 

[mamba]

People tend to forget Basic. Technically in print 20 years, supported for 17.

But multiple versions of it so hard to say how long it really lasted.

according to Ben Riggs

 

[mamba]

Abadia claims that Pathfinder NEVER outsold D&D. Not even for those months that 4E wound down.

The idea that Pathfinder eclipsed D&D even temporarily is the myth that won't die.

I am not sure the quotes he provided show that, so yes the 'myth' continues

 

[Hussar]

Apparently PF outsold 4e before 4e products ceased, in retail via ICV2 numbers. But yea.

And according to Lisa Stevens who ran Paizo at the time.

Yes because Lisa Stevens would have absolutely no reason not to be 100% accurate right?

 

[darjr]

Yes because Lisa Stevens would have absolutely no reason not to be 100% accurate right?

Can we stop calling people liars please?

 

[Hussar]

Can we stop calling people liars please?

I’m not saying she’s lying.

But she’s hardly an impartial witness either.

 

[Clint_L]

I would take Basic's numbers with a grain of salt. Almost everyone I played with had Basic because it was the game a relative bought you when they heard that you were into D&D; it used to sell for ten or twenty bucks at toy stores (I still have my yellow dice, with the numbers filled in by green crayon). But none of us played it. That's not saying no one did; some people swear by it to this day. But it was widely viewed as "kiddie" D&D and it was barely supported - there were virtually no articles in Dragon magazine, modules, etc. It was its own corner of the D&D world.

As evidence, note the steep drop-off in sales from Basic to Expert, let alone the subsequent rule sets; that gives you an idea of how many folks were sticking with basic and making campaigns out of it. The idea behind Basic was that you would start with it and then "graduate" to AD&D. Though in retrospect, Basic might be the better designed game in a great many respects.