D&D General Extra Credits: The History of D&D Hasbro Refused to Learn

[Clint_L]

Yeah, I read that just yesterday. People in the know have been saying that for a while now, but the myth endures. Theo explains quite well, IMHO, why it is so.

Theo is a bit prone to hyperbole in this article - for example he several times refers to 4e having "huge sales" which none of his sources state and generally goes against the gist of what his sources are saying, which is that it would have had great sales by the standards of any other RPG, but poor sales compared to what WotC/Hasbro were projecting.

There is no question that 4e was a disappointment for WotC in terms of sales; whether or not it outsold Pathfinder is immaterial. They weren't budgeting based on whether or not they could beat Pathfinder or anyone else; they were budgeting based upon their own targets, costs. etc. 4e consistently failed to meet their projections and divided their player base, which is why it was replaced so quickly. But I don't think 3PP and the OGL had much to do with it.

 

[darjr]

In looking for Johnathan Tweet quotes I found this. Which is interesting cause I think it captures what many may have thought at the time. It’s just interesting.

“Fifth Edition” looks like it will be more faithful to the D&D tradition than 4E was, and that’s good to see. It’s still going to be hard for Wizards to win back players, especially since they’re going up against Pathfinder, which is essentially an improved version of 3E.

It’s really heartening to see how many players are committed to Pathfinder. It’s been 14 years since 3E launched, and, in the guise of Pathfinder, it’s still the most popular version of the game today. No previous version of the game system has lasted that long.

Creative Colleagues: Jonathan Tweet | Dave Gross

web.archive.org

I think 5e dwarfed those numbers rather quickly. (Maybe it took a few years but I doubt it)

And with CC By and the 5e clones it may match it’s longevity.

 

[Zardnaar]

In looking for Johnathan Tweet quotes I found this. Which is interesting cause I think it captures what many may have thought at the time. It’s just interesting.

“Fifth Edition” looks like it will be more faithful to the D&D tradition than 4E was, and that’s good to see. It’s still going to be hard for Wizards to win back players, especially since they’re going up against Pathfinder, which is essentially an improved version of 3E.

It’s really heartening to see how many players are committed to Pathfinder. It’s been 14 years since 3E launched, and, in the guise of Pathfinder, it’s still the most popular version of the game today. No previous version of the game system has lasted that long.

Creative Colleagues: Jonathan Tweet | Dave Gross

web.archive.org

People tend to forget Basic. Technically in print 20 years, supported for 17.

But multiple versions of it so hard to say how long it really lasted.

 

[darjr]

People tend to forget Basic. Technically in print 20 years, supported for 17.

But multiple versions of it so hard to say how long it really lasted.

Good point! I def do.

And it’s one of my favorites.

I think it counts cause 3.0 - PF is three versions along those veins.

 

[Dire Bare]

There was also ICV2 reports at the time and online play numbers. Jonathan Tweet in an interview also claimed 4E was a disaster. You know tge guy who designed it.

3.5 at the time was more popular than 4E online. Not Pathfinder which was number 1.

Read Abadia's blog post. He addresses those points.

ICV2 reports are basically meaningless. Online play numbers are a piece of the puzzle, but do not give the entire picture.

4E wasn't a disaster, but it did fail to meet the goals WotC set for it. And yet, it still outsold all other games, including Pathfinder and World of Darkness.

 

[darjr]

Read Abadia's blog post. He addresses those points.

ICV2 reports are basically meaningless. Online play numbers are a piece of the puzzle, but do not give the entire picture.

4E wasn't a disaster, but it did fail to meet the goals WotC set for it. And yet, it still outsold all other games, including Pathfinder and World of Darkness.

It did not show icv2 numbers are meaningless.

 

[Dire Bare]

At the end of 4e it may have. And probably did in retail. We have actual numbers. Sure it’s a survey. Also Lisa Stephens has a quote to that somewhere.

I don’t think anyone was legitimately claiming that PF outsold 4e overall.

Abadia claims that Pathfinder NEVER outsold D&D. Not even for those months that 4E wound down.

The idea that Pathfinder eclipsed D&D even temporarily is the myth that won't die.

 

[darjr]

Abadia claims that Pathfinder NEVER outsold D&D. Not even for those months that 4E wound down.

The idea that Pathfinder eclipsed D&D even temporarily is the myth that won't die.

That’s his claim, yes. I’m not convinced by his blog.

 

[Azzy]

Oh, this again.

 

[CleverNickName]

"But what if I don't want Pathfinder to have outsold 4E? Huh? What then?"

But seriously though. Here on ENWorld, at least, the claim that Pathfinder was the best selling RPG for a short time comes from this thread, which featured the graphs below:

Here no