D&D (2024) Monks Are Not Tanks And Shouldn’t Be

The paladin's central class fantasy involves being a holy knight, and all variations thereof, following their own codes of chivalry, or holy commandments, etc. Fey knight, dark knight, chosen hero, royal knight... all variations of the same concept. Smites, auras, spells all related to that fantasy. The oath itself is related to that class fantasy.




Well, there's the access to Divine magic, which implies a connection to deities, who generally have moral codes. Smites and auras are usually related to deities as well.


Depends on what you mean by good. Like, knights are a fun archetype to play. Which doesn't have as much to do with mechanics. If, by good, you mean "mechanically good" then you're basically saying:

Paladins are mechanically good because their mechancis are good. Like... that doesn't tell anyone anything.

That's a very good way to piss off a player base. People generally want the monk to live up to its class fantasy. As I've said elsewhere, the most important thing when it comes to mechanics is VIBES. If its not vibing, its not a good mechanic.

Remember. When it comes to most players, they'll pick a story-based concept to play first, and then pick a class and other mechanics to represent that story-based concept. They will want those mechanics to be relatively balanced - too strong or too weak isn't fun for most people.
So you are not the user to whom I was responding who asserted that paladins are primarily knights who follow a code. It seems perhaps that you and this person may disagree. I'd urge you to sort it out with them.

In the meantime I'd note that it seems that different people may disagree on the critical aspects of the fiction underlying a class. And that's ok. It doesn't change how the class functions.

And let's look at what you did. You started with the mechanics and then justified them in the fiction. Try going the other direction. Even if we go with 'holy warrior' instead of 'knight with a code'. What part of holy warrior implies spellcasting, implies smites, implies auras? No part. They're abilities we've grown to expect because they are the mechanics provided them in past versions of D&D.

Edit: and note, I could justify all those same paladin mechanics for the monk. Smite = mystical power punch, spells = mystical connection to divine power, Auras = mystical control of their bodies/environment, connections to their friends or whatever. It's really really easy to provide fictional justification for mechanics in D&D.

At the end of the day the paladin is a good class to play (by which I mean fun), because it's mechanics are fun to use, relevant to play, and don't get in the way.

If the monk class mechanics were designed with the same philosophy it'd be a better class.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I think fundamentally,the monk is the warrior who can be the warrior while unarmored and wielding no weapons or "non-military" weapons.

The fantasy is still being a warrior.

Fans might concede that the monk is not as flexible as the fighter do to eschewing better weapons and armor. But the Monk's Ki and Discipline is supposed to make up for it. Like a Barbarian's rage and Paladin's Divine faith magic.

In strategy games, this is often displayed by trading Damage Reduction for Damage Avoidance by being unarmored and Higher Damage for Additional Attacks by going unarmored. These are sometimes called dodgetanks, vs healtanks, leechtanks, or armortanks.

The monk problem is that D&D doesn't split Reduction and Avoidance. And Attacks and Damage doesn't swing much in any direction but for the rogue {ONE BIG ATTACK}. And Avoid+Attacks is already the fighter's gimmick.
 

Mephista

Adventurer
And let's look at what you did. You started with the mechanics and then justified them in the fiction.
I tried to explain that the mechanics all derive from the core class fantasy of the paladin. Everything starts with the class fantasy. Everything.

Try going the other direction. Even if we go with 'holy warrior' instead of 'knight with a code'. What part of holy warrior implies spellcasting, implies smites, implies auras? No part. They're abilities we've grown to expect because they are the mechanics provided them in past versions of D&D.
Umm... what part of holy warrior implies spellcasting, smites, auras? The "HOLY" part. Like, 99% of pictures of gods, holy people or holy objects I'm familiar with have an aura with them. Holy people/places/things having an aura of purity or protection is a super common idea. Holy implies miracles, which is the cleric's divine spellcasting. Literally every spell a divine spellcaster actually casts is a prayer to the gods, angels, whatever to intercede for them. Smiting.... we've all heard of gods smiting evil. A paladin's healing? Its literally called Lay-on-Hands, a super common practice in at least Christianity - I don't know if other religions have a tradition of laying of hands for the sick, but certainly its a real world tradition associated with religion and holiness.

Like... I'm not sure how you can even claim that auras, smites, healing and the magic of gods is unrelated to a warrior-priest. This has nothing to do with D&D. Its everywhere in real world myths, religions and fantasy stories, including ones unconnected to anything derived from D&D or LotR, such as urban fantasy based on gothic literature.

Its seriously mind boggling for me.
Edit: and note, I could justify all those same paladin mechanics for the monk. Smite = mystical power punch, spells = mystical connection to divine power, Auras = mystical control of their bodies/environment, connections to their friends or whatever. It's really really easy to provide fictional justification for mechanics in D&D.

At the end of the day the paladin is a good class to play (by which I mean fun), because it's mechanics are fun to use, relevant to play, and don't get in the way.

If the monk class mechanics were designed with the same philosophy it'd be a better class.
No, you can't justify all the same mechanics for the monk. Because they fundamentally represent different things and different fantasies. Stunning Strike has its origins in the fantasy of striking pressure points to disable an opponent, not channeling the power of a divinity to wound a foe.

At the end of the day, paladin's mechanics are fun, but they are not the whole reason the class is fun to play. The lore and class fantasy are just as important. The most important thing for a class is its vibe. If it doesn't vibe with someone, then its not a fun class.

The monk class has a number of issues. Simply saying "Oh, just do a thing like you did with paladin" is easy to say, but its not really relevant, because the paladin's chasis does not really lend itself easily to what the monk needs to do to live up to its class fantasy.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Several reasons. Monks are actually not masters of unarmed combat. A barbarian with Tavern Brawler deals comparable damage with fists while raging (thanks to bonus rage damage) on a hit, and can actually grapple / shove / trip worth a dang.

This is because the monk is poorly designed.

"Master of unarmed combat" is not actually the core class fantasy. The core class fantasy is based around wuxia stories like Kung Fu tv show with buddhist monks (ergo the class name), Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon style martial artists, certain ninja fantasies, Avatar the Last Airbender, anime battle nuns. There's far more to all these than just being "master of unarmed combat," several of them use weapons, and none of these really are invovled with grappling at all.

Let alone the parkour aspects, the unarmored aspects, the mystic aspects. (healing, elements/energy blasts, shadows, etc).

Yes, many martial arts movies have people using weapons. Many of them also DON'T have them using weapons. If they are just incredible weapon using characters... why aren't they fighters? Fighter's cover this aesthetic.

Take Avatar for example, yes, it involves people throwing water and fire around. It is also based on martial arts, and only two or three main characters primarily use any sort of weapons.... and those are the characters who CAN'T bend the elements. It is more of a crutch.

Yes, there is a mystical aspect, but that SHOULD be present in other classes. That isn't unique to the monk.

Here's the thing. The only real advantage the monk has when it comes to unarmed damage is that it starts off with better damage than a flat 1 and effectively get FS: TWF and the light/finesse properties on their unarmed attacks. Baseline unarmed attacks are crap, and there needs to be some boost to make it a viable choice.

Agreed. The monk needs to be better designed to fill its niche.

If all it really takes to make unarmed viable is damage, light property and FS:TWF, then that's not really a good defense of the monk as an "overachiever." "But Flurry of Blows exists!" Yeah, and most Fighter subclasses give damage boosts, Barbarians get rage bonus damage and damage boosts from many subclasses, whereas most monk ones don't. "But stunning strike.." is not actually tied to being unarmed.

Its a sad truth, but the monk's level 1 features only exist to bring their unarmed damage and unarmored AC up to par with a duel wielding fighter in heavy armor. In no way, shape, or form can that be called "overachieving." That is "monk is the only way to dual weild fists!" as a concept. Which... is kinda narrow compared to what everyone else can do.

I never said the monk was overachieving at unarmed combat. No, they need to be redesigned. They are overachieving in fiction. Fighter is "the guy that fights, but not when angry, and not when pious, and not with magic, except when he does". If that is acceptable fiction for a class, then the monk "I am the master of my body, and using my body as a weapon" is plenty of fiction.

Now we just need the mechanics to support it
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
No, you can't justify all the same mechanics for the monk. Because they fundamentally represent different things and different fantasies. Stunning Strike has its origins in the fantasy of striking pressure points to disable an opponent, not channeling the power of a divinity to wound a foe.

At the end of the day, paladin's mechanics are fun, but they are not the whole reason the class is fun to play. The lore and class fantasy are just as important. The most important thing for a class is its vibe. If it doesn't vibe with someone, then its not a fun class.

The monk class has a number of issues. Simply saying "Oh, just do a thing like you did with paladin" is easy to say, but its not really relevant, because the paladin's chasis does not really lend itself easily to what the monk needs to do to live up to its class fantasy.

To semi-quote a show I'm watching now, the main character needs to learn how to let their inner energy flow around their body, so when they strike the enemy they send that energy into the enemy to damage them from the inside out.

So... dealing additional damage, on a hit.... probably based on a limited resource? How does that not describe the exact mechanics of spending a spell slot to deal extra dice of damage? Are you seriously going to try and claim that because the spell is called "DIVINE" that the mechanics are somehow different?

Same show, same inner power, they use it to create an aura of pressure that can harm foes... an aura... And they often have inspired people to fight harder, not hard to see how the Power of Kings could be used to create an aura that boosts their allies, based on their own inner soul shining through.


This is the point. You can take the lore and the fiction... and reflavor them. Heck, Eldritch Smite was an attempt to do this. It is literally Divine Smite, but powered by a warlock pact. The mechanics of Divine Smite aren't tied to some deep lore and thematics... they are spend resource do more damage.

What does +2 AC mean? Do I get a bonus to AC for magical forcefields? The Power of Faith? Preternatural dodging ability from future sight? Growing scales across my body? +2 AC can be any story we want it to be. The important part is the mechanics of it, not the story we attach.
 

I tried to explain that the mechanics all derive from the core class fantasy of the paladin.
You say po-tay-to
And let's look at what you did. You started with the mechanics and then justified them in the fiction.
I say poh-tah-to.

The nice thing about fantasy is that it holds limitless options to make fantastical fictional connections.

It just isn't that hard to take a collection of mechanical features and reverse engineer the fictional logic to make them make sense.
 
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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
You know, there have been times when Paladins couldn't smite, and at one point, one of their big class features was the ability to wield a holy sword. The exact mechanics used to express the "class fantasy" are always shifting. Over the decades, we've seen Paladins who are tanks, and Paladins who are offensive damage dealers. The pendulum swings to and fro.

The Monk, however, seems to have a problem shedding it's skin. It's central mechanics generally are as follows:

*ability to function without wearing armor in a game where melee fighters are intended to wear armor to protect themselves.

*ability to function without using weapons in a game where melee fighters are intended to use weapons to deal damage; alternately, sometimes there are mechanics to allow them to use inferior weapons more effectively (in a game where melee fighters are intended to use the best weapons for the job).

*a few largely unique defensive abilities, loosely based around protecting them from ranged attacks, magic, and detrimental effects.

*a grab bag of random abilities you'd expect from an "enlightened old master". Longevity, the ability to talk to all living things, and a lot of design space devoted to a cruddy version of a first-level spell (feather fall).

*the ability to go fast.

Monk mechanics are always fiddly and more complicated than what other classes do. I find this ironic, as most people who want psionics, for example, want psionics to have completely different mechanics from other spellcasters, and there's usually a lot of people who, if psionics have to be a thing, don't see the reason for a completely different magic system.

And yet, with Monks, we have a completely different combat system than that used by other warriors. Monks have a limited pool resource that powers all of their special combat maneuvers as part of their base class, which refreshes on a rest.

You can find mechanics like this in subclasses, like the superiority dice of the Battlemaster, but no other non-caster class works this way. The Fighter has several short rest abilities baseline, but you don't have to choose between, say, Action Surge and Second Wind, for example, nor are you restricted from doing both if you need to.

Subclasses that grant new abilities to another class that require the use of resources, have their own bespoke resources to use, again, the battlemasters gain superiority dice, arcane tricksters gain spells, etc.. But in the Monk's case, their subclasses say "hey, since you already have ki, we'll just give you more abilities that use it!".

Going back to psionics, even though I've often agreed with those who want psionics to feel different, the Monk is actually an excellent argument for why that would be bad for the game! The Monk class suffers greatly because so much of it's design is centered around trying to make it completely different from other combat classes! And, as I've noted before, the end result is rarely the best at anything!

The Rogue can be built to be a better skirmisher and is way better in the skills department. The Fighter can make more attacks for more damage. The Barbarian can fulfill the class fantasy of "guy in loincloth fending off dozens of foes" better than the Monk can. Melee control? A Battlemaster with weapon masteries can't stun, but is otherwise a serious contender (and if Cunning Strike remains, the Rogue is potentially even better!). Even the Monk's most unique feature, it's great speed, can be replicated by a 1st-level spell (and a 1st-level spell, as I pointed out, is superior to slow fall).

Whatever it is that the Monk is supposed to be, be it peerless melee combatant, skirmisher, or "annoying kung fu guy who can never be hit", they aren't really good at it.

Like the Ranger, the Monk also suffers from the designers not "picking a lane" for the Monk. Most of it's design is full of artifacts from previous editions; editions where it was mathematically proven to be a terrible class (and yet, at least once a week, a thread griping about how Monks were OP and/or people just didn't understand them would pop up on every gaming forum- a trend that continues to this very day!).

Monks are not good tanks. Being a tank isn't just being unhittable. You need to also have the ability to force enemies to focus on you, as opposed to other party members. Almost nobody is a good tank in this sense, but it's ok, every class except the Monk can be built to wear the best armor in the game if they really want to!

That's the reality of the current iteration of D&D. The Monk either needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, to fit in this paradigm, or die. There's no reason to put this class in the PHB except as a shining example of ivory tower game design.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
You know, there have been times when Paladins couldn't smite, and at one point, one of their big class features was the ability to wield a holy sword. The exact mechanics used to express the "class fantasy" are always shifting. Over the decades, we've seen Paladins who are tanks, and Paladins who are offensive damage dealers. The pendulum swings to and fro.

The Monk, however, seems to have a problem shedding it's skin.
The Paladin was always the Divine Steroids class.

If the Fighter deal 12 slashing damage, the Paladin was supposed to deal 8 slashing damage and 4 holy damage.

It didn't matter if the power was from a holy sword, smites, or Divine spells. The mechanics can go different ways because the fantasy is clearly known The paladin fantasy was supposed to be a "weaker warrior" who makes up for it with Divine PEDs. This is why Paladins had to wear the heaviest armor. They were not good at fighting as pure fighters.

Discipline and ki/life energy is supposed to be the PED for the monk.

The monk has never been a tank in D&D but has in other RPGs because the other games have a oblivious idea of how Ki and Discipline mimic Toughness and Armor on a nekkid person.
 


James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
The Paladin was always the Divine Steroids class.

If the Fighter deal 12 slashing damage, the Paladin was supposed to deal 8 slashing damage and 4 holy damage.

It didn't matter if the power was from a holy sword, smites, or Divine spells. The mechanics can go different ways because the fantasy is clearly known The paladin fantasy was supposed to be a "weaker warrior" who makes up for it with Divine PEDs. This is why Paladins had to wear the heaviest armor. They were not good at fighting as pure fighters.

Discipline and ki/life energy is supposed to be the PED for the monk.

The monk has never been a tank in D&D but has in other RPGs because the other games have a oblivious idea of how Ki and Discipline mimic Toughness and Armor on a nekkid person.
I'm not really sure I ever saw Paladins as being weaker than Fighters. Most of the time, it was the opposite, they were "Fighter+".
 

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