D&D General What is player agency to you?

But that isn't what was described above. What was described, upthread, was someone pointing to a passage in their 20 (or was it 25?) year old compendium of setting notes. This isn't the first time such things have come up either. Multiple actual people--specific posters on this forum--reserve the right to simply declare that sort of thing if they feel it makes sense. Or, worse, to not declare it, but have it exist nonetheless.

I would not invent this sort of thing if people had not expressly said it's what they do, have done, or reserve the right to do.
Ah, sorry, I was not aware of that.
A single encounter is quite a bit different from an entire adventure designed such that it screws over a specific party member. And if you want an actual, IRL example of this kind of stuff, not one I invented off the top of my head: People complaining about undead-centric adventures or campaigns when playing as Rogue, because Rogue (at least in 3e) could not do sneak attack damage to undead for ill-explained simulationist reasons. (Something to the effect of "undead don't have functional anatomy, so they have no special weak points," as though it couldn't still be the case that they have weaker spots to attack for different reasons...)
Oh, I am definitely talking about single encounters, or at best a series of encounters where the factor is in play. For example, the pyromancer's group having to go to the elemental plane of fire to retrieve something. It might take a few sessions, and during those sessions, that PC might not be the most helpful. But when they come back, you had best believe the DM should try to let that character shine.
But such things should either (a) not be blanket "now you just suck for this whole adventure, because the thing you specialized into is worthless for now," OR (b) should be EXTREMELY well-telegraphed so the player has a chance to prepare, or potentially even to look for a solution of some kind. E.g., with the Rogues and undead thing above, maybe they do some digging and find out that holy weapons can still harm undead that way--but the character has a rocky relationship with faith. Suddenly, what was just a crappy blanket "nope, you don't get to be a fun rogue, you get to be a Wal Mart brand Fighter" now becomes a cool opportunity. What is the rogue willing to do to keep their edge (in this case, almost literally edge)? Will they try to mend their ways and find a good-guy deity to petition? Or perhaps they turn to something a bit...darker? After all, "holy" in D&D just means an enchantment from a divine source, not from a good source. Etc.

You seem to be taking it as a given that the GM will only do things in the most maximal extent of good faith. Folks here on ENWorld, to say nothing of the wider internet, have more than once told me otherwise, when it comes to doing the work of justifying why a thing should be the case.
I am definitely not a blanket person, and yes, it should be well telegraphed. Or, at worst, a single encounter - a random fire giant for example. (Even though my encounters are never really random.)

And yes, every DM I have ever played with for a campaign had had good faith. Almost every player too. That is over the span of thirty years and many states. But I have heard otherwise, although for many of those complaints, it's the mountain out of a molehill in my opinion. This is not to discount the legitimate ones. Just many I've seen on Reddit seem like high school students trying to work out social constructs more than a problem in a game.
 

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I'm not sure they'll ever get rid of "Mother may I" without locking down things to a point I wouldn't adopt the new rules.

Take stealth for example. In a game over the weekend, the druid animal shaped into a giant hyena(?) with the goal of distracting a couple of ogres. She was hidden when she wild shaped but I let her know once she ran out into the street and past the ogres that they would see her. She was trying to distract them so the rest of the party could sneak into the building on the street. As a DM I have to decide if this made sense - a simplistic version of stealth would say no that the ogres could clearly see them. But I took into consideration that ogres are monumentally stupid. So even though the rest of the group stepped out into the open, I let them be stealthy. It was a fun scenario with multiple rounds of the hyena trying to draw off the ogres (it mostly worked) while the rest of the group snuck around.

But there were points where it was just "Can I do this?" and as a DM I had to make a judgement call. That's just kind of how the game works at certain points, I think the game works best if you can color outside the lines now and then. Rulings over rules and all that.
I'd substitute the druid's performance or deception vs. the ogres perception in place of the party making a stealth check. Done and dusted.
 

I'm a good enough DM that I can get anything to work.
I am not sure that is a sign of a good GM. I am sure I can always find an excuse for why the audience could be granted as well. that does not mean much to me however ;) I mean, it is better than not getting it to work, I just do not think it is generally all that important
 
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I'd substitute the druid's performance or deception vs. the ogres perception in place of the party making a stealth check. Done and dusted.
There were multiple checks for how well the druid distracted the ogres, I was just pointing out that nothing in the rules allows for one PC to distract an enemy so others could sneak past in plain sight.
 

I am not sure that is a sign of a good GM. I am sure I can always find an excuse for why the audience could be granted as well. that does not mean much to me however ;)
If being able to take whatever the players do and advance things forward is not the hallmark of good DMing I have no idea what is. For example, if the PCs hire a group of people to rescue our hypothetical princess, all we do is say that the sub-contractors are 1.) successful and 2.) decide that they deserve the entire reward not just whatever the PCs allotted to them, and send them one of her severed fingers to make the point. Now the merfolk princess is in a different location and the PCs can now figure out how they want to deal with the greater problem they've created with all the trappings of a normal hostage/heist movie.

As far as OP is concerned, and this is probably too spicy/personal for enworld discourse, the problem is that he and his group just don't like each other. They need a new group, simple as that, one that IS interested in the sort of stuff he wants to do. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole is asinine.
 

If being able to take whatever the players do and advance things forward is not the hallmark of good DMing I have no idea what is. For example, if the PCs hire a group of people to rescue our hypothetical princess, all we do is say that the sub-contractors are 1.) successful and 2.) decide that they deserve the entire reward not just whatever the PCs allotted to them, and send them one of her severed fingers to make the point. Now the merfolk princess is in a different location and the PCs can now figure out how they want to deal with the greater problem they've created with all the trappings of a normal hostage/heist movie.

As far as OP is concerned, and this is probably too spicy/personal for enworld discourse, the problem is that he and his group just don't like each other. They need a new group, simple as that, one that IS interested in the sort of stuff he wants to do. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole is asinine.

Sometimes failure and frustration is what makes the game enjoyable. I don't want to play on "easy" mode, so always succeeding would not be the game for me.
 

Sometimes failure and frustration is what makes the game enjoyable. I don't want to play on "easy" mode, so always succeeding would not be the game for me.
I'm not sure having the person you were sent to rescue get their finger cut off counts as success. There have to be ways to 'fail' that don't cause the game to grind to a halt or end in a TPK - that means broadening your understanding of what counts as failure.
 

Wouldn't that have been established before hand? Like, they could see that there were warships blocking access to the port? I think that's a little different. If the DM introduced the barricade simply to block the request because he doesn't want the characters to leave the city yet because there's "more to do"... then that's something else entirely.

But, either way, I would think in these circumstances, there's going to be some dude out there who is gonna try and get past the barricade, right? Some smuggler or pirate or freebooter that rumor has it has been getting ready to get past the barricade... and people are saying he's mad or that he has some foul magic that he'll use to do it... and so on.

It's an invitation to something interesting, no?
It is definitely established beforehand. 100%. That is part of the point. Circumstances can dictate the feature's accessibility. It could have just as easily been we were inland at the dwarven mine and told we needed to go to the island. So, I would go to the nearest port town and look for passage using my feature. Then surprise! When we get there, it is barricaded. To me, that is legitimate too if the DM had already had plans for that. (Although, a great DM would have foreshadowed or placed it as part of the military dynamics. You know, the old caravan riding empty two days from town complaining about how no goods are coming in or out of the port. But maybe we were stupid and didn't take the road. Maybe we went off-road to search for some ranger herbs or something.)
And yes, it can definitely lead to something interesting. But, in my experience, sometimes a DM has to plan for those things. Therefore, I wouldn't mind waiting to see what they had planned.
Sure, that happens from time to time. I imagine it happens more in games where this stuff has been shown to not matter.

And I'd say it's also on the DM... if you have a character with the noble background in the party and you haven't considered why there's a noble with this group, and what it might mean for their life or obligations, then I'd say that DM is passing up a lot of potential ideas for things to introduce into play.
I think here you are placing too much liability on the DM. I have seen many DMs try. I have seen them try to work things in. I have seen them ask questions out of game to see where these types of players wanted to go. And almost all the responses are: "I took it for the skills."

I feel you are looking at this as a DM not putting in the work. Sometimes, the work can be put in, and the result is still the same.

So could it be the DM? Yes. In my experience (because I have had many great DMs) it never was. It was always the player not caring about their character's background. Mind you, they cared about their character, but they did not care about its background. To them, it was a means to start progressing their character - which can be fun in its own way.
What was gained by the DM denying this ability?
Why does there need to be a gain? In their head, they thought logically it doesn't work, had a reason, and then made a judgement call based on that reason. The gain is it made me wary of underwater encounters, which seems suitable to my character. From that point on I was always trepid regarding encounters near water. So I guess there was a gain - it made my character develop a small flaw that acted upon their psyche. Sounds like a character that became well-rounded through adventuring experience. The exact kind of character growth a player might want.
It could. But this goes back to it being a choice. We can interpret it that way... which shoots down the player's idea... or we can interpret it to mean a lord local to the current location (which seems to make more sense... what noble can't get an audience with their own family or local lords?) which acknowledges the player and places their character into a position of prominence in the unfolding events.
I agree, interpretation can go both ways. I have said such. But why fault the DM that interprets it the other way? Because it doesn't allow player exactly what they want? That seems petty to me, especially when every DM I know would have allowed its use 9 out of 10 times.

Because, to be clear, we are discussing circumstances that are not normal. We are discussing extraneous circumstances that lead the DM to say no. They are not doing it to just say no. They are not doing it to force their will. They are doing it because there is a circumstances that tells them, not here, not now, or not with this person.
 

Sometimes failure and frustration is what makes the game enjoyable. I don't want to play on "easy" mode, so always succeeding would not be the game for me.
I think this gets to the heart of a discussion on player agency: I love a difficult and challenging campaign. That's what I run. I want players to face those challenges with the ability to use their characters ability to the max. In the Curse of Strahd game I ran I ran the characters ragged in a cruel and heartless world. The players on the other hand felt their choices made a difference and mattered. One of them still talks about how tasty those Dream Pastries were. (That's an inside joke about something horrible the players learn about in the game).

Just saying "that isn't something you can do now," isn't making the game on easy or hard mode.
 

Sometimes failure and frustration is what makes the game enjoyable. I don't want to play on "easy" mode, so always succeeding would not be the game for me.

Yes, always succeeding, especially always succeeding "easily" would get old fast - at least for me.

But I don't think that's the OPs problem. The problem, boiled down, is that he has (at least a few) players who don't like each other AND who don't like his DMing style. That's a hard problem to solve - other than to simply recognize that some people shouldn't be in the same group and perhaps need a different DM.
 

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