D&D General What is player agency to you?

[Oofta]

I'm not sure having the person you were sent to rescue get their finger cut off counts as success. There have to be ways to 'fail' that don't cause the game to grind to a halt or end in a TPK - that means broadening your understanding of what counts as failure.

Finger cut off? Huh?

I never said anything about TPKs or the game grinding to a halt. I don't want a game where everything always succeeds. If at first you don't succeed either there will be other options or perhaps you need to rethink your entire approach and/or goals.

 

[soviet]

So to maximize agency the DM should just let them do whatever they want?

Yes, if the rules say they can.

 

[Raiztt]

Finger cut off? Huh?

I never said anything about TPKs or the game grinding to a halt. I don't want a game where everything always succeeds. If at first you don't succeed either there will be other options or perhaps you need to rethink your entire approach and/or goals.

Did you not actually read the post of mine that you quoted? Because the text that you quoted literally is an instance of a plan that doesn't succeed and the PCs have to come up with a new plan/course of action.

 

[Mort]

Just saying "that isn't something you can do now," isn't making the game on easy or hard mode.

Personally, I tend to be even more permissive when I'm running a particularly difficult game/scenario.

I want the players to recognize that things are cruel/hard they might well not (and probably won't) prevail or even survive but that failure won't happen because I'm stingy with saying yes to things they want to do!

 

[soviet]

I agree with both premises but not the conclusion.

I think the conclusion is that in a game about exploring the GM or adventure paths world (a fundamental premise of D&D) that the DM being forced to make up a fictional reason to say yes to the player actively violates that fundamental premise.

They're not forced to. They want to.

It's fine to play games that limit player agency for other reasons eg verisimilitude or GM narrative. Player agency isn't everyone's number one priority. Just know that that is what you're doing.

 

[Oofta]

Yes, if the rules say they can.

It has to fit the narrative as well once anyone or anything other than the PC comes into play as far as I'm concerned. For any action to succeed it has to be possible in the fiction that has been established.

 

[Oofta]

Did you not actually read the post of mine that you quoted? Because the text that you quoted literally is an instance of a plan that doesn't succeed and the PCs have to come up with a new plan/course of action.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I said that I don't want to always succeed on everything I attempt and you leapt to fingers getting cut off and TPKs.

 

[Raiztt]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I said that I don't want to always succeed on everything I attempt and you leapt to fingers getting cut off and TPKs.

You replied to my text, which was explicitly talking about how to take a failure and roll with it, by saying "Sometimes, failure needs to be possible". What are YOU talking about?? You literally quote me when I was talking about failure/consequences. I did not "leap" to anything, you were responding to my post where I talk about a finger getting cut off as a consiquence of the PCs actions. So... did you read the post you quoted or not??

Either you a. didn't read what I wrote, or b. are responding in a contrary tone despite agreeing with me.

 

[Oofta]

You replied to my text, which was explicitly talking about how to take a failure and roll with it, by saying "Sometimes, failure needs to be possible". What are YOU talking about?? You literally quote me when I was talking about failure/consequences.

So either you a. didn't read what I wrote, or b. are responding in a contrary tone despite agreeing with me.

I did miss the part of the fingers. However, I still don't agree that "being able to take whatever the players do and advance things forward" is always for the best. Sometimes plans don't work. If the PCs hire someone, perhaps the group they hire fails and now the kidnappers know that you know where they are and it becomes more difficult to achieve the rescue.

I still don't know where the TPK or not moving the game forward comes into play. Sometimes you won't be able to achieve a goal and you have to move on to different goals, perhaps to circle back around when you are better prepared or have a different approach. Not achieving specific goals never brings the game to a halt in my campaigns because I don't have a story or plotline preplanned. I have locations, NPCs, factions, motivations. What the PCs decide to do with all of that is up to them.

 

[soviet]

It has to fit the narrative as well once anyone or anything other than the PC comes into play as far as I'm concerned. For any action to succeed it has to be possible in the fiction that has been established.

Why would players declare actions that were impossible?

What does 'the narrative' mean? The GM's narrative?