D&D General What is player agency to you?

So yet again: players can't be trusted, GMs are infallible and selfless

No.

People are fallible. If you've played for a long time (like, I am assuming, all of us have), you've undoubtedly seen bad DMs.

And you've undoubtedly seen bad players.

I am not sure what the purpose of any conversation is when one side is always assuming all good players and bad DMs, and the other side is always assuming all bad players, and good DMs.

Instead, it's probably best to assume that people are people, and taking examples of dysfunctional play as the norm (from either players or DMs) is probably not conducive to making grand and sweeping points about how all games really function.
 

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if the noble isn't home due to having to travel away as direct result of player actions 7 sessions ago and the consequences thereof,
Why is the GM telling a story like this? What benefits are had by their framing the fiction in this way?

if it has been in the GM's notes for 6 sessions that the noble won't be home for 2 months,
Why is the GM employing such directly relevant session notes and then saying nothing about them? Why is this particular noble so foolish as to take a vacation and not leave anyone at all who can attend to the needs of her household while she's away? Even if it's literally the medieval equivalent of, "I'm sorry, the lady of the house is out, can I take a message?"

if the players only decided to visit the noble at his manor 3 sessions ago (well before those 2 months have passed in game),
Three sessions? So...the GM has had three weeks to come up with literally any kind of compromise or alternative? This is sounding less and less like a terrible time crunch. Now, I get that preparation can be difficult to squeeze into one's life (particularly with memory being a problem!) but it seems to me that this is ample time for the GM to come up with literally anything besides, "no, sorry, that just does not work at all. Do something else."

if the players make no effort to learn that/there is no logical reason from the actions the players take to come to learn that the noble isn't home,
Then they are playing in bad faith. I flatly refuse to consider any argument based on players playing in bad faith unless and until it is equally acceptable to field arguments based on GMs playing in bad faith.

then is it still the GMs fault that the noble isn't at his manor when the players visit it?
No. But that's not the problem, is it?

The problem is the GM saying, "No, sorry, that just does not work at all. Do something else." And yes, I am quite comfortable saying that it is the GM's fault that, apparently, the one and only possible response was to simply shut down the effort, and not any of the nigh-infinite variety of alternative options. Options it takes me all of two minutes to come up with.
 



No.

People are fallible. If you've played for a long time (like, I am assuming, all of us have), you've undoubtedly seen bad DMs.

And you've undoubtedly seen bad players.

I am not sure what the purpose of any conversation is when one side is always assuming all good players and bad DMs, and the other side is always assuming all bad players, and good DMs.

Instead, it's probably best to assume that people are people, and taking examples of dysfunctional play as the norm (from either players or DMs) is probably not conducive to making grand and sweeping points about how all games really function.
Hell, my post which he was responding to didn't even involve bad players or bad DMs. The spaghetti method is one which players(myself at times in my life) try. Trying stuff until something works is a way some folks play.
 


D&D is not designed to automatically assure player authoritative control outside of what their character does. Even if authorial control over the fiction of the world outside of your character increases player agency I don't see that it matters. If I want to change the world as a player, not just through my character, I'll play a different game. But if I do that then I just have other limits, my agency is still limited. It's just limited in other ways.

Some games, some campaigns, are going to have more or less player agency. That has little effect on enjoyment of the game. Some DMs are always going "find a way" for a feature to work no matter how illogical. Other DMs are going to base decisions on how things work based on how they view the world.

I prefer the latter option, but neither one is inherently better.
 

As I said (way) upthread, rarely or even sometimes - well ok. But if something approaching much of the time the ability doesn't work "for reasons..." then it becomes a problem. Like if you decided to take a sorcerer that focuses on fire cleared it with the DM who said "sounds great..." and then during play you find out that the great majority of adversaries are resistant or immune to fire.
I'm also looking at the ability compared to other background abilities.

Acolyte: Shelter the Faithful is highly limited as it requires an established presence of your faith to work and those won't be in most villages or towns and perhaps not even in every major city.

Charlatan: False Identity is also highly limited. The identity isn't going to be so far reaching that every town and city in the world and even other planes will be touched by it.

Criminal: Criminal Contact is even more limited than the first two.

Entertainer: By Popular Demand is more broad, but is also not dependent on people in other cities, countries and universes knowing who you are.

Folk Hero: Rustic Hospitality is highly limited as you will generally only rarely use it. And it builds in an exception where you can be refused.

And so on. The Noble ability likely uses local in the sense of the home country of the PC so as not to dwarf the abilities of the other backgrounds.

Nobody is suggesting that the majority of times the ability will fail, but we are suggesting that if it logically would fail(see the exception to Folk Hero), then it should fail.
Had the equivalent happen to me in a Deadlands game:

Invited into the campaign and ask what kind of character is expected etc. Told that it's a relatively low power, low magic campaign. So I make a character that's ok with a gun but who's specialty is as a tracker. DM looks over the character, says he should work great in the group.

FIrst session, we're faced with a mystery and realize that the perp vamoosed. "Great" I think, I can be useful! So I track the perp, only to be told (after an absurdly high tracking roll - exploding dice and everything) that all I can tell is that the perp used magic to cover his escape and that I won't be able to track him.

Second session, another tracking opportunity comes up - different perp. Roll decent (not absurd like the session before, but should be a success) only to be told that something is preventing me from finding the trail and I wasn't successful.

Between that and a few other clear red flags - I didn't bother showing up for a 3rd session.
That does seem like a DM saying no in order to achieve his agenda rather than letting things play out as they probably should.
 

Let's suppose a scenario. The party steps through a portal and is transported 5,000 years into the past. What features would actually work? There's obviously no contacts, criminal or otherwise. There may or may not be libraries for that sage to investigate. Even if you're Prince Grand High Poobah, it's of a country that won't exist for another 4,000 years so it's meaningless. Assuming the locals even recognize nobility as a thing.
As I said above: like recognizes like. This is literally written into the description of the ability. You look like you fit in, even if you don't actually fit in, because you have that je ne sais quoi aristocratic air. (Which, of course, can bite you in the butt too--you can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse, but a silk purse stands out pretty hard in the pigsty.) Certainly, things could be much more complicated, at the very least a language barrier is likely.

But guess what?

I've literally done something like this. And it worked! It was actually super cool, particularly because it put a frequently quiet player in an interesting role. So the fact that you think this is an utterly ridiculous, unbelievable scenario when I've not only done it but gotten a shy and casual player to open up some more and genuinely feel deeply invested as a result tells me maybe you shouldn't dismiss this as some utterly ridiculous, impossible example.

(Formally speaking, the character has class features for diplomatic stuff rather than a 5e-type Background, and it was a bit of time travel very roughly 3000 years into the past rather than 5000, but I hope you'd agree that those are rather less important than the event itself.)

There is no logical reason for someone to have a criminal contact, at least not right away. That pirate that can get away with minor crimes because of their reputation is just as unknown as everyone else. The archeologist might be able to tell people approximately when we are because of their training. The noble might have a better idea of what the social hierarchy is and even have advantage on interactions with the ruling class. But if they want to get an audience with the ruler of the land, which may not even have the concept of nobility in terms of inherited titles, claiming a noble lineage of somewhere that doesn't exist is not going to buy them anything.
Criminal contact, no. But just as above, like recognizes like, and you can't tell me that some cunning bastard wouldn't see the potential there and try to do something with it. Not only is that a sweet narrative moment, it's actually quite realistic--because when you're a prince-of-thieves kind of person, you learn how to size people up right quick, and more importantly, how to see potential where others see none at all. Seeking out and investing into a professional relationship--"networking," one might say--is a big deal, whatever stratum of society one calls home.

Just a tiny bit of creativity can turn a dull, flat "nope, sorry, doesn't work, move on" into an amazing experience. This specific one hasn't happened (and isn't likely to; the time shenanigans probably won't come back), but something loosely analogous is likely in the future, and I can't wait to see how the vaguely-criminal-ish character (our party Bard) handles it.

It would be jarring to me as a player and be completely illogical world building if all of our background features still worked as written. Many of the background features are based on recognition, contacts and understanding how things work where people are from.
And I assert that the "recognition" you speak of is much more fundamental than "oh yes, I literally already know your name, family history, rap sheet, and favorite dining establishment." That it can be built off of those intangible, ineffable, intuitive things that factor into nonverbal communication.

There are times when background features as written won't work. Doesn't mean the feature is totally worthless, it may or may not be. But these features are not built in to the framework of D&D, IMHO they're tacked on. Many are poorly worded or thought out and many only apply where the person would logically be recognized. I'll take a ruling from a DM that makes sense for the scenario we find ourselves in over strict literal reading of the rules for background features any day of the week.
Conversely: Perhaps it is D&D--or, rather, a limited perspective of what D&D can be--that is at fault here. Perhaps we should exhaust as many avenues as we can reasonably try before finally admitting defeat, and that only with great reluctance. Perhaps, instead of viewing these backgrounds as a poorly-wrought, alien imposition that can and should be thrown off like a soiled jacket as soon as one is out of the rain, we should see them as a welcome pointer to new, interesting, useful things that we can leverage into excellent gameplay and/or narrative with just a few minutes and a dollop of creativity.

Perhaps we should be looking for a reason to say yes, rather than looking for a reason to say no.
 

As I said above: like recognizes like. This is literally written into the description of the ability. You look like you fit in, even if you don't actually fit in, because you have that je ne sais quoi aristocratic air. (Which, of course, can bite you in the butt too--you can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse, but a silk purse stands out pretty hard in the pigsty.) Certainly, things could be much more complicated, at the very least a language barrier is likely.

But guess what?

I've literally done something like this. And it worked! It was actually super cool, particularly because it put a frequently quiet player in an interesting role. So the fact that you think this is an utterly ridiculous, unbelievable scenario when I've not only done it but gotten a shy and casual player to open up some more and genuinely feel deeply invested as a result tells me maybe you shouldn't dismiss this as some utterly ridiculous, impossible example.

(Formally speaking, the character has class features for diplomatic stuff rather than a 5e-type Background, and it was a bit of time travel very roughly 3000 years into the past rather than 5000, but I hope you'd agree that those are rather less important than the event itself.)
This reduces the ability and makes it worthless. If all it takes is wearing nice clothing and acting like a noble in order to get the ability, then every PC can have it regardless of background. It's not as if some lord on other side of the world can call up my home country on the phone and check my papers.

The ability has to include more than just, "He looks and acts like a noble, so he must be!" in order for it to work.
 

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