D&D General What is player agency to you?

[Pedantic]

So having wasted about 7 pages on some of the worst defined rules in 5e, can we move the conversation back to agency?

There are other matters where players can prefer not to have agency, such as managing adversaries and adversities.

I think this quite rightly identifies there's no overarching value of agency to be discussed, merely agency WRT something.

 

[FrogReaver]

Well, to look at it from another angle. Suppose a player surrendered agency to the rules (and presupposing an ideal state where applicability and meaning aren't in doubt), and GM seeing that the rule in this circumstance was unreasonably and perhaps implausibly limiting, gave a ruling thar relaxed the constraint (and presupposing an ideal state where the wisdom and justice of the ruling is apparent to all players.) They are judiciously increasing player agency ("the rules work for you", where the "you" in question is extended to the group.)

I don't know that I fully agree, so let's explore.

I think this presupposes that a player has more agency simply by virtue of having more options. I don't agree with that. For example: I wouldn't agree that increasing the number of receivers on a given play increases the quarterbacks agency in American football. Whether the QB has 1 receiver or 5 he still has agency over whether to throw the ball at all, when to throw the ball, how hard to throw the ball, whether to throw the ball high, low, inside or outside, whether he throws the ball out of bounds, etc.

Or suppose that the rules were changed to allow the QB to throw the ball into the back of a pickup trick and have the 'receiver' drive the truck to the endzone. Changing that rule doesn't increase the QB's agency, it just changes the game.

I don't think the question of agency is about how many choices a player has, but rather of the choices they have, are they meaningful.

 

[FrogReaver]

So having wasted about 7 pages on some of the worst defined rules in 5e, can we move the conversation back to agency?



I think this quite rightly identifies there's no overarching value of agency to be discussed, merely agency WRT something.

Exactly!

I'd even add a corollary - anything can be framed as increasing agency WRT to some X and anything can be framed as decreasing agency WRT to some Y.

 

[Aldarc]

Since we are talking about the game text in the books, I thought it would be useful to find out what the DMG says about backgrounds. The most pertinent information seemed to come from the part where it talks about creating a custom background. I think that we getter a better sense of insight into how the designers thought their features should be handled in the game:

A background feature should avoid strict game benefits, such as a bonus to an ability check or an attack roll. Instead, the feature should open up new options for roleplaying, exploring, and otherwise interacting with the world.

For example, the sage's Researcher feature is designed to send the character on adventures. It doesn't provide information or an automatic success for a check. Instead, if a character with the sage background fails to recall information, he or she instead knows where to learn it. This might be a pointer to another sage or to a library long lost within an ancient tomb.

I think that the same would be true for the Noble's Position of Prestige. It's not an "I win button." Instead, its purpose is to create an opportunity for roleplaying and interacting with the world. I personally think that a chance for the characters to roleplay with the nobles of the City of Brass would certainly qualify.

 

[mamba]

Just reading this makes me think we've come to the reason for this disagreement about the noble audience thing at last

I doubt it is true for @Oofta, I know it is not true for me, so no, you have not. At best this is a sideshow

 

[FrogReaver]

One thing that I’ve been thinking

Suppose a game has the DM roll 100 rolls before the game instead of contemporaneously with player actions. He then simply reveals the next roll to the players when a check would normally be required.

With respect to player agency is there any impact?

 

[mamba]

There are other matters where players can prefer not to have agency, such as managing adversaries and adversities.

this can be handled by the rules too, it's just way more theatre of mind than 5e. Also, I was not really all that serious there

 

[mamba]

So having wasted about 7 pages on some of the worst defined rules in 5e, can we move the conversation back to agency?

that seems to be even more poorly defined

 

[FrogReaver]

Really? Like, my choice to put my child in a car seat only has meaning if, despite my precautions, she has a chance to be injured or killed in a car crash.

I’d suggest that’s precisely the reason you put your child in the car seat - There’s always a chance of a car crash.

 

[mamba]

One thing that I’ve been thinking

Suppose a game has the DM roll 100 rolls before the game instead of contemporaneously with player actions. He then simply reveals the next roll to the players when a check would normally be required.

With respect to player agency is there any impact?

no, not sure where this is headed / if anyone thinks differently...