D&D General What is player agency to you?

[Mort]

There's a big difference between there always being a way forward, even if it's in a different direction, and always saying yes or success at a cost. I do use success at a cost now and then if someone is close, but failing forward is not a guarantee.

For me it's "try to say yes..." not "always say yes..." (I wonder if anyone actually does do that).

It's more about not always (or way too often) saying no - and unnecessarily limiting things.

I always have multiple options or worst case multiple goals. PCs don't succeed at everything they try, I wouldn't want to either.

How about if PCs come up with a solution/option that would have never occurred to you? I find that happens quite a bit in play!

 

[Vaalingrade]

no, that is why I suggested uninformed instead.

If the outcome is meaningful, then so was choosing the outcome, however you did that

Or to stick with the lottery analogy, if you won the lottery, would you consider filling out the winning ticket important / meaningful? I sure as hell would

You can use an auto pick.

 

[Oofta]

For me it's "try to say yes..." not "always say yes..." (I wonder if anyone actually does do that).

It's more about not always (or way too often) saying no - and unnecessarily limiting things.

I say some variant of yes more than I say no.

How about if PCs come up with a solution/option that would have never occurred to you? I find that happens quite a bit in play!

Same here. I don't have a monopoly on problem solving.

 

[mamba]

You can use an auto pick.

does not change anything, call it buying the ticket then as the action. No matter how you frame it, some action lead to you having the winning ticket, do you consider that action meaningfull?

 

[Maxperson]

For me it's "try to say yes..." not "always say yes..." (I wonder if anyone actually does do that).

It's more about not always (or way too often) saying no - and unnecessarily limiting things.

For me I say yes or roll the dice as long as it's reasonable to do so. I'm not going to stretch into the ridiculous in order to find a reason to say yes or roll the dice. That means yes or roll more often than not.

How about if PCs come up with a solution/option that would have never occurred to you? I find that happens quite a bit in play!

Oh, absolutely. I love when they do that. At this point I don't even bother to think of solutions half the time(the other half they just pop into my head automatically) because I know the players will come up with something.

 

[Raiztt]

As I just said - "uninformed is sufficient to make a choice meaningless, but not necessary to do so."

Depending on the degree of "uninformed"ess, I disagree with this strongly - but defending my position would basically derail this thread into philosophical minutiae.

 

[bloodtide]

So three of my summer games are the same adventure. I want to give some details, and see where people would point to Lack of Player Agency or Railroading. I just want to see what other people will say.


Set up: A short, direct adventure to fill the summer. The players all picked "slay a dragon" for an adventure: only a couple players have ever had a character fight a dragon in a game and wanted to do it. Everyone made 'generic' wanderer characters so they could all "wander into the adventure": that is town puts out a call for heroes and a bunch of random characters (the player characters) show up and form a group. As a Traditional game the players can never create anything in the game world after creation or alter game world reality. They can only take actions in the game though the direct action of their character.

Adventure Background: Young red dragon shows up at a isolated mountain town and clams the town is now part of his domain. The dragon demands a tribute and will return in 100 days to collect, or will destroy the town. The town calls out for dragonslayers.

Adventure Setting: Isolated independent mountain town. The town is all noncombatants, other then a small militia. There are no obvious high level NPCs anywhere in town or nearby just waiting for a PC to ask them to help. No easy button things like an dragonslaying artifact just sitting on top of towns folk mantle. There is no Alchemist shop with twenty thousand gallons of acid on a shelf. There is no obvious Broken "Lance of Dragon Slaying", that the PCs can just "find" and "recombine" to Easy Button end the adventure.

Roughly half of the town and area is detailed, with the other half under a vague outline. There are well over a hundred less then obvious or hidden things for players to find and potentiality use.

We have three groups Group A (5E) made up of mostly good player, Group B (3.5E) made of a mix of neutral and bad players, and Group Z(5E) a group of bad players.

There is not much "adventure worthy" or "fun" in town. The tavern is just locals. There are no obvious 'cool' monsters in town. In any case I come down hard on any player that tries to do anything non adventure related.

Group A: Being the good group of players they come to town and plan to slay the dragon. They do research, role play and gather information about the town and area.

Group B: Came to town a bit unfocused, but then got a bit more focus and role played doing something about the dragon with a bunch of half baked random ideas all that went nowhere. They fought the local kobolds a lot.

Group Z: breezed through town and went right out to find the dragon. They had plenty of encounters, but could not find the dragons lair.

For the first couple sessions I did just let the groups do whatever they wanted. They were all forced to meet the baron ruler and the local dragon sage. And they did encounter lots of set ups for people, places and things...no matter what they did.

Then they all met the local dwarf druid who told them that the dragon likes to drink at some local hot springs early in the morning once a week.

Group A is sure this is a trap, and have chosen to ignore it. There plan is to attack the dragon when it comes back on day 100.

Group B thinks it's a trap too, but are planning to make the trap a trap for the dragon.

Group Z rushed out to the hot springs lead by the helpful dwarf. Waited. Made close to no effort to hide until they saw the dragon flying towards the area. Then attacked the dragon as six independent "Lone Wolf" like attackers and ignored each other. The dragon had loads of fun with the characters, and killed three of them. With the nedded players making new characters, they are planning to "try again".


And this is where things left off last weekend.

 

[FrogReaver]

Depending on the degree of "uninformed"ess, I disagree with this strongly - but defending my position would basically derail this thread into philosophical minutiae.

We probably agree, so no need to defend that position. I'm not claiming any little bit of uninformedness makes a choice meaningless.

 

[FrogReaver]

So three of my summer games are the same adventure. I want to give some details, and see where people would point to Lack of Player Agency or Railroading. I just want to see what other people will say.


Set up: A short, direct adventure to fill the summer. The players all picked "slay a dragon" for an adventure: only a couple players have ever had a character fight a dragon in a game and wanted to do it. Everyone made 'generic' wanderer characters so they could all "wander into the adventure": that is town puts out a call for heroes and a bunch of random characters (the player characters) show up and form a group. As a Traditional game the players can never create anything in the game world after creation or alter game world reality. They can only take actions in the game though the direct action of their character.

Adventure Background: Young red dragon shows up at a isolated mountain town and clams the town is now part of his domain. The dragon demands a tribute and will return in 100 days to collect, or will destroy the town. The town calls out for dragonslayers.

Adventure Setting: Isolated independent mountain town. The town is all noncombatants, other then a small militia. There are no obvious high level NPCs anywhere in town or nearby just waiting for a PC to ask them to help. No easy button things like an dragonslaying artifact just sitting on top of towns folk mantle. There is no Alchemist shop with twenty thousand gallons of acid on a shelf. There is no obvious Broken "Lance of Dragon Slaying", that the PCs can just "find" and "recombine" to Easy Button end the adventure.

Sounds good so far.

Roughly half of the town and area is detailed, with the other half under a vague outline. There are well over a hundred less then obvious or hidden things for players to find and potentiality use.

Depending on how you handle finding hidden things this might be important.

We have three groups Group A (5E) made up of mostly good player, Group B (3.5E) made of a mix of neutral and bad players, and Group Z(5E) a group of bad players.


There is not much "adventure worthy" or "fun" in town. The tavern is just locals. There are no obvious 'cool' monsters in town. In any case I come down hard on any player that tries to do anything non adventure related.

This last line give me pause, though depending on details around it then that could be perfectly fine.

Group A: Being the good group of players they come to town and plan to slay the dragon. They do research, role play and gather information about the town and area.

Sounds normal. Did the find and fight the Dragon?

Group B: Came to town a bit unfocused, but then got a bit more focus and role played doing something about the dragon with a bunch of half baked random ideas all that went nowhere. They fought the local kobolds a lot.

I think it's important for you to own your role in the ideas going nowhere.
It's also important to recognize why players start throwing out half baked random ideas.

Anyways - I'd like to hear more on this part. What were some of their ideas, how did they play out?

Group Z: breezed through town and went right out to find the dragon. They had plenty of encounters, but could not find the dragons lair.

That would feel bad. Can you elaborate on how they tried to find the dragon and why none of those things worked?

For the first couple sessions I did just let the groups do whatever they wanted. They were all forced to meet the baron ruler and the local dragon sage. And they did encounter lots of set ups for people, places and things...no matter what they did.

How did these things tie into their goal of slaying the dragon? I'm guessing Lore, Gifts, etc?

Then they all met the local dwarf druid who told them that the dragon likes to drink at some local hot springs early in the morning once a week.

Group A is sure this is a trap, and have chosen to ignore it. There plan is to attack the dragon when it comes back on day 100.

Sounds like a reasonable player decision. Did you fast forward to day 100 or leave them to twiddle their thumbs?

Group B thinks it's a trap too, but are planning to make the trap a trap for the dragon.

Sounds like another reasonable player decision.

Group Z rushed out to the hot springs lead by the helpful dwarf. Waited. Made close to no effort to hide until they saw the dragon flying towards the area. Then attacked the dragon as six independent "Lone Wolf" like attackers and ignored each other. The dragon had loads of fun with the characters, and killed three of them. With the nedded players making new characters, they are planning to "try again".

And this is where things left off last weekend.

Sounds fine. Just curious what level of PC's and what CR of Dragon?

I'll give a more thorough analysis after getting some of the additional details. Thanks!

 

[Mort]

So three of my summer games are the same adventure. I want to give some details, and see where people would point to Lack of Player Agency or Railroading. I just want to see what other people will say.


Set up: A short, direct adventure to fill the summer. The players all picked "slay a dragon" for an adventure: only a couple players have ever had a character fight a dragon in a game and wanted to do it. Everyone made 'generic' wanderer characters so they could all "wander into the adventure": that is town puts out a call for heroes and a bunch of random characters (the player characters) show up and form a group. As a Traditional game the players can never create anything in the game world after creation or alter game world reality. They can only take actions in the game though the direct action of their character.

Seems like you DID solicit the players input on what they actually wanted to do - so that's not nothing.

They wanted a dragon focused adventure and they got it.

Adventure Background: Young red dragon shows up at a isolated mountain town and clams the town is now part of his domain. The dragon demands a tribute and will return in 100 days to collect, or will destroy the town. The town calls out for dragonslayers.

Adventure Setting: Isolated independent mountain town. The town is all noncombatants, other then a small militia. There are no obvious high level NPCs anywhere in town or nearby just waiting for a PC to ask them to help. No easy button things like an dragonslaying artifact just sitting on top of towns folk mantle. There is no Alchemist shop with twenty thousand gallons of acid on a shelf. There is no obvious Broken "Lance of Dragon Slaying", that the PCs can just "find" and "recombine" to Easy Button end the adventure.

Roughly half of the town and area is detailed, with the other half under a vague outline. There are well over a hundred less then obvious or hidden things for players to find and potentiality use.

Sounds like a fun setup. Since time is short (the summer), the players are getting the adventure they want and play is to be focused in that direction. You keep saying there are no "easy button" artifacts etc. but that there are plenty of things for the players to use. Can you give an example?

We have three groups Group A (5E) made up of mostly good player, Group B (3.5E) made of a mix of neutral and bad players, and Group Z(5E) a group of bad players.

I don't like your description of the groups as good and bad. Seems more like the last group just doesn't fit your playstyle at all.

What level is the party (good to know just how much of a challenge this will be)? And do you expect (or was there) any leveling before the Dragon encounter?

There is not much "adventure worthy" or "fun" in town. The tavern is just locals. There are no obvious 'cool' monsters in town. In any case I come down hard on any player that tries to do anything non adventure related.

Why? Is it just a time factor? And what does non adventure related mean? A player could tie just about any activity in town to the adventure!

And what does come down hard mean? All it should take is a reminder "hey, we're pretty short on time, maybe some focus?" or something like that.

Group A: Being the good group of players they come to town and plan to slay the dragon. They do research, role play and gather information about the town and area.

Group B: Came to town a bit unfocused, but then got a bit more focus and role played doing something about the dragon with a bunch of half baked random ideas all that went nowhere. They fought the local kobolds a lot.

Group Z: breezed through town and went right out to find the dragon. They had plenty of encounters, but could not find the dragons lair.

For the first couple sessions I did just let the groups do whatever they wanted. They were all forced to meet the baron ruler and the local dragon sage. And they did encounter lots of set ups for people, places and things...no matter what they did.

Then they all met the local dwarf druid who told them that the dragon likes to drink at some local hot springs early in the morning once a week.

Group A is sure this is a trap, and have chosen to ignore it. There plan is to attack the dragon when it comes back on day 100.

Group B thinks it's a trap too, but are planning to make the trap a trap for the dragon.

Group Z rushed out to the hot springs lead by the helpful dwarf. Waited. Made close to no effort to hide until they saw the dragon flying towards the area. Then attacked the dragon as six independent "Lone Wolf" like attackers and ignored each other. The dragon had loads of fun with the characters, and killed three of them. With the nedded players making new characters, they are planning to "try again".


And this is where things left off last weekend.

How does bringing in new characters work? Same level as the old ones?