D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[overgeeked]

That's what a statblock is for, IMO. You can get the rest of the stuff elsewhere, but a REALLY EASY to use statblock is a DM's best friend.

I loved 4e. Now, some of that might be that that was the system that had my longest running campaign with mostly the same guys......context matters. But, I really loved how the rules (like statblocks) were strait forward, and there was a TON of lore in the non-statblocks. I liked the "gamist" language in the rules parts a lot. It just made it easier to actually run the game. There was plenty of lore and stuff outside the blocks.

Yeah. I will never understand that weird stance. Everyone acknowledges it’s a game, clearly it’s a game…and yet we have to pretend it’s not actually a game.

 

[darjr]

Yeah. I will never understand that weird stance. Everyone acknowledges it’s a game, clearly it’s a game…and yet we have to pretend it’s not actually a game.

Eh. The more fluff and rules are separated the less I like it. I find that the rules tend to get all the ficus and the rest begins to go fallow.

It’s one of the reasons I like 5e over 4e.

 

[Zaukrie]

Eh. The more fluff and rules are separated the less I like it. I find that the rules tend to get all the ficus and the rest begins to go fallow.

It’s one of the reasons I like 5e over 4e.

There is more fluff in much of the 4e MM books than the 5e MM....according to the the word count (see above). So I'm not sure your point. The actual statblock? Get rid of the fluff....that's all I really said. I mean, the warlock and sorcerer in 4e are way fluffier.way, than 5e.

 

[overgeeked]

Eh. The more fluff and rules are separated the less I like it. I find that the rules tend to get all the ficus and the rest begins to go fallow.

It’s one of the reasons I like 5e over 4e.

If you can’t parse the rules, you can’t play the game. No matter how great the fluff is. You can have fluff-free games, generic systems that still work. Not so much with rule-free games.

 

[the Jester]

I'd jump too!

After all, no one wants to be lonely.

Never split the party!

 

[darjr]

If you can’t parse the rules, you can’t play the game. No matter how great the fluff is. You can have fluff-free games, generic systems that still work. Not so much with rule-free games.

And yet plenty of folks played OD&D with barely readable photocopies of photocopies.

 

[darjr]

There is more fluff in much of the 4e MM books than the 5e MM....according to the the word count (see above). So I'm not sure your point. The actual statblock? Get rid of the fluff....that's all I really said. I mean, the warlock and sorcerer in 4e are way fluffier.way, than 5e.

It’s not the amount it’s the bright divide between the two and the disconnect that can engender.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Eh. The more fluff and rules are separated the less I like it. I find that the rules tend to get all the ficus and the rest begins to go fallow.

It’s one of the reasons I like 5e over 4e.

I think that this is immaterial it is all in the eye of the beholder. People that focus on the fluff will focus there regardless of presentation and the mechanically minded will extract the mechanics from any amount of fluff.

 

[overgeeked]

And yet plenty of folks played OD&D with barely readable photocopies of photocopies.

Yes. Because everyone reading them at the time knew what blanks to fill in from being wargamers. They had all the info they needed from prior experience. It’s only later generations without that wargaming experience or who are more used to rulebooks spoon-feeding information to the reader that have trouble parsing those old books.

Note how there’s almost nothing but rules in the original three books. Gygax was surprised that people would need to be given fluff. I don’t know the exact quote, but it was something about wondering why people would need TSR to sell them an imagination. Or something equally pointed and nasty.

 

[darjr]

Yes. Because everyone reading them at the time knew what blanks to fill in from being wargamers. They had all the info they needed from prior experience. Note how there’s almost nothing but rules in the original three books. Gygax was surprised that people would need to be given fluff. I don’t know the exact quote, but it was something about wondering why people would need TSR to sell them an imagination. Or something equally pointed and nasty.

No. If you look at old zines and the elusive shift it was clear that the fast growing majority of early adopters were NOT the traditional lake Geneva style wargamers. In fact it’s that truth that probably helped that explosive growth.