D&D General What is player agency to you?

Yes. And that real-life agency is a different kind of thing to player-agency. The two are not directly comparable, other than being forms of "agency." For exactly the same reason that actions you can take as a player are not directly comparable to actions you can take as a human being in 2023 on Earth, even though both things are forms of "action."


...yes. That was literally my point. There are different types of realism. There are different types of agency. Player agency is not one-to-one equivalent with human-on-Earth-in-2023 agency. Using an example of how something cannot be done by a human-on-Earth-in-2023 is not a rebuttal to a statement about player agency for exactly the same reason that using an example of how dragons violate the square-cube law is not a rebuttal to a statement about realism in Dungeons and Dragons.
You keep saying that, but I don't see any different between the two agencies other than one is imaginary.

In the real world I have the option of going to the Grand Canyon. In the game I can have my PC go to a grand canyon. In the real world I can engage the option to attempt a running jump over the Grand Canyon and fail. In the game my PC can attempt a running jump over the really big canyon and fail. In real life I can die from the fall. In the game the PC can die from the fall. In the real world I can survive the Grand Canyon fall(see the teenager that recently fell off ) by getting lucky. In the game my PC can survive the fall by getting lucky.

Agency is just the players being able to choose options that affect the world. Both examples above will do so as both the real world and the imaginary world react to the fall and survival or death that results.

What is different from real world agency(the ability I have to make choices that affect things) and D&D agency(the ability that I have to make choices that affect things)?
 

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If the GM is not deciding any destination, then what are they doing? How does one "find common ground" without either (a) reaching a compromise with someone else, such that both parties determine the end result and thus recognizing their independent agency, or (b) declaring what the result will be, which the other(s) must simply accept (or walk away from, but I assume people who want to keep playing)?
Let's take the example, P1 wants to say
my PC is in Townshire because my mentor told me that's where I can find the herbs that will let us brew the potion that will revive my cousin from the magical sleep the local warlock tyrant has placed him into?
But P2 has a different idea, they want to say that nothing can revise the cousin except for a sacrifice on their part of whatever they hold dearest. Is it down to who spoke first? GM helps players navigate such conflicts, applying the rules judiciously.

How does one "harmonize"? What does that mean? Because to me, the "harmonizing" is not at all like being a conductor. In fact, I find the analogy completely inapplicable and useless--to the point that I nearly responded to it backwards because I thought you were calling the players conductors. Conductors assist other people in their performance of a piece. GMs do not "assist" players at all, in the GM-authorship mode being discussed here. GMs are assisted by players. It is the GM actually doing the action; the players simply provide inputs.
Harmonize may not be the best word, but I mean this. Each player decided who their character was, what motivates them, etc. GM helps them create characters that belong in the same space, and that - in their interactions - enhance rather than disrupt each other's purposes.

Whose hands are on the metaphorical instrument--the player, or the GM? Because as far as I can tell, it's exclusively the GM. That's why every single time, someone asks something to the effect of, "Well, did you clear it with the GM well in advance?"
I took clearing in advance to mean something like this. Suppose we're playing RuneQuest: astronaut characters are unlikely to fit well, and it's more likely rune or spirit magic that has the cousin in the magical sleep. The herbs should be considered in terms of their connection with those things, and... the player has told the GM where they want to go and what they want to achieve. Practically begging them to add a twist... "and what problems await you in Townshire? Why did you leave?" Part of the GM's job is to help the player say things they otherwise wouldn't want to say, or say those things for them. They can't protagonise without antagony. Or in sim mode to encourage curiousity "Why would the tyrant need to do that to your cousin? Who is your cousin? How do they figure? What threat did your cousin pose to the warlock?"

It's quite insufficient just to have warlocks doping cousins. Tyrants need motives. Cousins need to be their subject, or have interfered somehow. It's GM's job to make sure those are known. The analogy of conductor is replete with resources for grasping this.

Conductors don't "clear" orchestra performers well in advance of the performance of a piece. They do nothing like "clearing" anything. If the performer won't perform the piece as intended, they won't be asked to perform the piece at all.
I very much think they do. They don't just let Jo Harmonica rock up to their classical piece. Not without considering the effect to the whole.

The analogy does not hold.
It holds nicely. That it doesn't seem that way might be down to taking some unsatisfactory version of trad GMing that one has experienced, and reading it into every description of trad GMing. One might as well say that players make proposals to the dice, which do all the actual initiating!

And, separately from all of the above; WHAT "player authorings"? Per the repeated questions from at least two different posters in this thread, everything must be (a) "cleared" through the GM well in advance, and (b) the GM must be allowed to draft up appropriate content. But the latter thing IS the authorship. There is no player involvement in it. Players can insert hoped-for notions into the GM-authorship black box, and potentially get the payoff out at the other side. They don't actually participate in the authorship process at all.
Another version of trad GMing is, as Eero put it "GM story hour"
What I would like to offer as a modest alternative to old-fashioned railroading theory is that the purpose of the GM story hour is not to cheat and create an illusion of freedom; it is to exquisitely prepare nuanced literary material for intimate consideration
A group may be blessed to have access to a narrator whose stories they love to immerse in. Who will serve as their lusory-means through which they satisfy their pre-lusory goals. Or, in trad forms of sim, they may be blessed to have a GM working to expand their ludic-agency in the directions they show interest in, just as bedrockgames explained multiple times in another thread. And this really matters, because at any given moment, regardless of whatever set of ludic-agency I might think a player has, they can only avail of a few elements. (This is one reason why playbooks turn out to afford good ludic-agency: not because they are expansive (they are not) but because they contain the ludic-agency the player will want to employ in each moment of play, oriented to the situation and premises of the specific game.)
 

How is this even remotely controversial? The things a player, within a game, can do are often radically different from the things a human, within the real world, can do. Why should it be the case that every display of agency within the rules of a fictitious game should perfectly, bidirectionally match every display of agency within the real physical world?
The bolded isn't relevant at all. It's not WHAT you can do, it's that you have plenty TO do. It doesn't matter that I can get into my car and drive to a 7-11 for a Slurpee and my D&D cleric can't. It also doesn't matter that my cleric can cast cure wounds and magically heal a cut and I can't. We both still have options that affect our environment. We both still have full agency. The agency is the same, even if the available options aren't.

To put it another way, my D&D fighter has radically different options available to him than your D&D wizard and vice versa. You're arguing that every player and PC has incomparably different agency simply because they all can do very different things.
 



Even more accurately, we are at most subtracting smaller infinities from larger ones. Leaving infinities.
Yeah, I thought about that, but sometimes that concept can be hard for some people to grasp. Not saying @EzekielRaiden is one of those. I'm pretty sure he could get it, but there are other readers here that lurk and I wanted an example that would be accurate and easier to understand. :)
 

I missed seeing that example. Who applied the credibility test? Who called for the scavenging check?
I can only quote what was mentioned, you will need to ask @pemerton

I assume the scavenging check is a rule in the book. The player asked for it by looking for the mace once it was established by the credibility check. Not sure if the credibility test is a rule (chances are it is), or that is just DM judgement.
 

You're redefining the word agency? So agency in real life is not an applicable definition for games? Seems like you're just redefining a word to only apply to your preferred style of game. Actions in game are, of course an abstraction of reality but they are still actions the character is taking (at least in D&D). Those actions include things I cannot do in the real world just like the fantasy world do not typically support things I do in the real world.

So agency doesn't really mean agency unless it means agency as redefined to only apply if you play a narrativist game. Like I said. Jello meet nail. :rolleyes:

No redefining is necessary. You’re stuck on comparing the agency of characters to that of people in the real world. But that’s not an apt comparison.

Players are capable of making up things in and about the game world. We’re talking about the agency of the player. This is why treating the player and the character separately is key.

Your refusal to do so is why you’re not getting what others are saying, as the quoted post shows.

Player-authored fiction is not the only kind of agency.

We've been through this.

As a player of an RPG, the only agency you have is to author fiction. It’s everything you do as a player. “I go over there” and “I hit it with my axe” and every other action declaration you make is authoring fiction.

One thing I think we all agree on is that D&D doesn’t typically grant players the kinds of narrative control that narrative game players are granted.

I just want to make clear that part isn’t in dispute (I think you agree). It’s what that fact means in relation to agency that gets disputed.

When put that way, it’s hard not to see the line where agency ends for one group and continues for another.

The bolded isn't relevant at all. It's not WHAT you can do, it's that you have plenty TO do. It doesn't matter that I can get into my car and drive to a 7-11 for a Slurpee and my D&D cleric can't. It also doesn't matter that my cleric can cast cure wounds and magically heal a cut and I can't. We both still have options that affect our environment. We both still have full agency. The agency is the same, even if the available options aren't.

To put it another way, my D&D fighter has radically different options available to him than your D&D wizard and vice versa. You're arguing that every player and PC has incomparably different agency simply because they all can do very different things.

Again, this is a comparison of two different things. What your character can do in the game world and what you can do in the real world. It doesn’t help with understanding the agency players have when playing RPGs.
 

No redefining is necessary. You’re stuck on comparing the agency of characters to that of people in the real world. But that’s not an apt comparison.

Players are capable of making up things in and about the game world. We’re talking about the agency of the player. This is why treating the player and the character separately is key.

Your refusal to do so is why you’re not getting what others are saying, as the quoted post shows.



As a player of an RPG, the only agency you have is to author fiction. It’s everything you do as a player. “I go over there” and “I hit it with my axe” and every other action declaration you make is authoring fiction.



When put that way, it’s hard not to see the line where agency ends for one group and continues for another.



Again, this is a comparison of two different things. What your character can do in the game world and what you can do in the real world. It doesn’t help with understanding the agency players have when playing RPGs.
I could have sworn the narrative side said that trad games had less player agency than narrative games, not no player agency. Are we changing that claim now?
 


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