Sorcerers Apprentice
Hero
The evidence indicates there's neither.
D&D (2024) Class spell lists and pact magic are back!
- Thread starter Neonchameleon
- Start date
Incorrect. That same laser focused packet5 warlock is weaker in some way than the 2024 warlock no matter what else they get why it was done or what new things it allows was echoed loudly in the warlock threads at the time, some of the very people defending the weighting were even part of it.
Sorcerers Apprentice
Hero
I'm not sure I understand how that video is relevant...
You repeatedly expressed doubt that anyone would vote they way and go on to wonder why a video focused on encouraging that very thing is relevant? You are either very confused about something fundamental or I suspect the problem is not understanding...
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Remathilis
Legend
There are some changes we're getting regardless of how poorly they poll. Druid Temp HP, quicken spell, 1/day smite and -5/+10 feats (for example) are all areas where the option is simply too good or doesn't fit their design ideology anymore and even if the changes polled 0%, we'd still be getting them. These are the "taking your medicine" changes, and frankly there are a few more of these that need doing.
Sorcerers Apprentice
Hero
I do find your latest posts quite hard to parse due to their non-standard punctuation and grammar. Is your point that you think there was a semi-organized campaign to vote down the UA warlock proposal because it made the warlock weaker?
Considering that the stated purpose of the warlock changes was to boost the class, it should be no suprise that the UA polled poorly, since it delivered the opposite. The real question is how did the proposal even make it out of internal playtesting into the UA document.
Remathilis
Legend
Not responding for Tet, but my take.
EnWorld isn't the only place where D&D changes are being discussed, and a lot of the places I saw when discussing the warlock change in particular was based on the notion that the warlock was not supposed to be a spellcaster, it was a ticking time bomb. You did EB spam for a while and then dropped your high level nukes, short rested, and did it again. If your group was good at getting short rests, you can cast your highest level spells 6 times per day and it was fruitless to cast anything but except to save your life. Spellcasting forces the opposite: a bunch of lower level magic to use more regularly at the cost of only one bomb per day (MA). So when people pulled out their white room scenarios, they argued six 5th level slots > 4/3/2 slots plus one 5th, and declared warlock nerfed and tried to get people to vote to kill spellcasting. Nevermind that short rests availability varies by group and two rests is rare in actual play.
The same has come up with paladin smite; people who were against the change to a spell came up with all manner of corner case exceptions (can't smite raksasha, NPCs counterspelling) to prove it was a Nerf despite those things being rather rare in the grand scheme of things.
It gets hammered out on social media, Reddit, in YouTube videos and their comments section. Even when someone shows the math, the change is already hated enough that the numbers are low enough to fail. And it comes from the charops community who love their white room scenarios to max DPS. It's not a surprise that many of the multi-classing cheese builds begin with warlock.
Is it a grand conspiracy? No. Are people who love their cheese builds voting to keep it cheesy? Yes.
mamba
Legend
WotC says to not focus on balance when voting, but on the idea… But I agree, people vote low because they do no like the proposal as much as what they have today, including for balance reasons that WotC explicitly says to ignore.
All of this just means the numbers they get is not what they pretend they are when they then make their decisions based on them. The whole thing is a farce
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Remathilis
Legend
I won't go as far as farce, but WotC is very selective in when it uses player feedback and when it doesn't. And the playtesters use a variety of tactics to manipulate the polling. It's a game of statistical brinkmanship. WotC wants us to test the vibe, and we either crank out spreadsheets or go completely on gut reaction and vote based on it, and then WotC tries to figure out why we voted like we did. So then they decide it's easier to touch up what's there over parse out why wild shape or pact magic failed and how to iterate them.
Mirrorrorrim
Hero
I disagree. I like the subclass at 3rd. I like the potential story of the new sorcerer not yet precisely understanding their spark and the player and DM can create an on-screen narrative of that spark fully manifesting.
