D&D General What is player agency to you?

[mamba]

Seriously. The "referee," "GM," whatever we call it. They are the ones claiming power.

we point out that the rules give us that power... we do not need to claim anything. You can play PbtA if you want different rules

 

[Maxperson]

In this case, they absolutely do.

Thing 1 intentionally only offers A-type features. It offers as many of them as it can, but it only offers those. It intentionally excludes all B-type features; they are simply not available, no matter what.

Thing 2 offers both A-type and B-type features. It offers no fewer A-type features than Thing 1 does. It also offers B-type features. In some cases, these things may combinatorially interact, but at rock bottom, no A-type features are excluded.

In what way can you possibly argue that Thing 1 could offer more features?

You can't, but more features does not equal more agency. Agency is simply the ability to make choices that affect your environment. The degree to which you can do it and the number of options to do it with do not matter, except if the number of options is 1 in which case it's a railroad.

Agency is like a car. A car gets you from one place to another. If you can do that you have full car(agency). You can value different aspects, such as speed(traditional play) or the quality of the sound system(narrative play) more than other aspects, but dialing those aspects up or down have no impact on whether or not you have full car(agency) to get from place to place.

 

[mamba]

If it isn't self-appointed, are you saying it is the players twisting the GM's arm to do it?

Because otherwise, they're willingly taking on that job. Nobody elects them. They choose to do it because they want to. How can that be anything other than self-appointment? It's not like strange women lying in ponds distribute swords to do it.

The players elect them by playing in their game. If the players do not agree to play, then there is no GM

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Sure, I am not even disagreeing with the player having more agency in them. That agency comes with a price however, and I rather not pay it and keep my traditional game. Maybe it is just me, but I am not really interested in discovering my character's backstory or have the world revolve around them. The focus of these games has no appeal to me.

Okay. No one was asking you to like it. Genuinely nobody.

But several people--IIRC, you among them, though with over 160 pages at this point, I'm not going to go combing back through it--explicitly said that there wasn't any difference in agency at all, or even that "trad" games have more agency.

If you're willing to grant what you've said here, I don't really think there's much more to talk about. You recognize that a distinct thing is present, and that in being present, all else being equal, it implies there is more agency in one thing than the other. You don't consider that particularly valuable, so it isn't for you. No one has told you it is or should be.

we point out that the rules give us that power... we do not need to claim anything. You can play PbtA if you want different rules

....

I do.

What is with this aggressive "how dare you yuck my yum" attitude? You guys are the ones who were saying that our yum was yucky! That there wasn't any difference in agency, or that if one did exist, it was in favor of "trad" gaming.

You can't, but more features does not equal more agency. Agency is simply the ability to make choices that affect your environment. The degree to which you can do it and the number of options to do it with do not matter, except if the number of options is 1 in which case it's a railroad.

Agency is like a car. A car gets you from one place to another. If you can do that you have full car(agency). You can value different aspects, such as speed(traditional play) or the quality of the sound system(narrative play) more than other aspects, but dialing those aspects up or down have no impact on whether or not you have full car(agency) to get from place to place.

Okay.

Character agency is like a nice little electric hybrid. It gets you where you want to go, has good gas mileage, maybe it has some quirks or limitations but most of those are not particularly onerous if you're prepared.

Player agency is like a completely different kind of car. Say, a genuine off-road SUV (not the urbanized trash vehicles masquerading as "SUVs" today). It doesn't get anywhere near as good gas mileage, so you shouldn't drive it around town, but if you like to go hunting, or camping, or carrying large quantities of material from one place to another, or something of that nature, it can deliver in ways the hybrid simply cannot do.

It is possible for agency to be a binary...and yet still something where you can have more or less of it, if it can come in multiple flavors. Which is what Raiztt and now Mamba have granted to be true. Of course, I don't actually agree that agency is a binary and you certainly haven't proven that it is one, but even if that's true, the possibility of different kinds of agency--different levels on which one can make choices that affect the environment, to use your definition--means that you can have more "yep, that's agency" answers in one game than in another.

 

[Maxperson]

Whereas to my eyes, those are literally exactly contradictory. A game that totally eschews "narrative style" would be one devoid of a world to explore or discover, and the only "character" I could focus on would be one dictated to me. I would be reduced to nothing but a witness for someone else's unpublished novel.

This, "A game that totally eschew "narrative style" doesn't even come close to equaling, "I would be reduced to nothing but a witness for someone else's unpublished novel" That significant disconnect might be where your difficulties are coming from.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

If it isn't self-appointed, are you saying it is the players twisting the GM's arm to do it?

Because otherwise, they're willingly taking on that job. Nobody elects them. They choose to do it because they want to. How can that be anything other than self-appointment? It's not like strange women lying in ponds distribute swords to do it.

People twist my arm to GM for them all the time!

 

[FrogReaver]

In this case, they absolutely do.

Thing 1 intentionally only offers A-type features. It offers as many of them as it can, but it only offers those. It intentionally excludes all B-type features; they are simply not available, no matter what.

Thing 2 offers both A-type and B-type features. It offers no fewer A-type features than Thing 1 does. It also offers B-type features. In some cases, these things may combinatorially interact, but at rock bottom, no A-type features are excluded.

In what way can you possibly argue that Thing 1 could offer more features?

I’d suggest that what’s being disputed isn’t the conclusion but the premise. To continue with your analogy - there is no proof/evidence that thing 1 only offers type A features while thing 2 offers type A and B features. Perhaps if there was more rigor in those claims, but it seems like it’s mostly mere assertion that this is the case.

What people readily agree on is that if your description is accurate that would lead to your conclusion. The logic isn’t the problem, the truth of the premises are what’s in dispute.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I’d suggest that what’s being disputed isn’t the conclusion but the premise. To continue with your analogy - there is no proof/evidence that thing 1 only offers type A features while thing 2 offers type A and B features. Perhaps if there was more rigor in those claims, but it seems like it’s mostly mere assertion that this is the case.

What people readily agree on is that if your description is accurate that would lead to your conclusion. The logic isn’t the problem, the truth of the premises are what’s in dispute.

Do you dispute that character agency is different from player agency? (Again, noting that multiple people in this thread have now explicitly granted this.)

If not, do you dispute that "trad" games offer, to varying degrees, character agency but not player agency? (Ditto, with those granting it saying that they prefer the fact that "trad" games do not offer such.)

If not, do you dispute that "narrative" games, in general, offer as much character agency as "trad" games? (As far as I can tell, this has also been granted by both of the aforementioned, but perhaps I could be mistaken.)

If not, do you dispute that "narrative" games offer player agency in addition to character agency? (Again, granted by at least two people in this thread, with the addition that that is not to their taste and thus they will avoid "narrative" games as a result.)

If not, why are we arguing?

 

[Maxperson]

Character agency is like a nice little electric hybrid. It gets you where you want to go, has good gas mileage, maybe it has some quirks or limitations but most of those are not particularly onerous if you're prepared.

Sure. Gas mileage/electric can be another aspect you value.

Player agency is like a completely different kind of car. Say, a genuine off-road SUV (not the urbanized trash vehicles masquerading as "SUVs" today). It doesn't get anywhere near as good gas mileage, so you shouldn't drive it around town, but if you like to go hunting, or camping, or carrying large quantities of material from one place to another, or something of that nature, it can deliver in ways the hybrid simply cannot do.

That's still just full car.

It is possible for agency to be a binary...and yet still something where you can have more or less of it, if it can come in multiple flavors.

And so have I. Different flavors doesn't equate to more or less, though. It just focuses on an aspect that you value more or less personally. You LIKE flavor X, so a game that doesn't give you flavor X will FEEL like lower agency. You don't actually have lower agency, it's just feels that way. Objectively you are still just going from one place to another just like any other working(non-railroad) car will do. Full car(agency).

 

[Raiztt]

i can't believe this thread is still going