D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Mannahnin]

For me, it was 4e that made me realize tracking ammo is no longer even fair as I watched the Arcane classes spam cantrips round after round with no need for any ammunition at all. Sure, bows have great range, but that comes up pretty rarely.

When arguably the best archer in the game is a Warlock with Eldritch Spear, why should we even care about making sure the Ranger tosses a few gold into his "arrow budget" every time he hits town? I mean heck, you never see Legolas run out of arrows.

To my recollection he does once in the movies, and it happens in the books, as Micah noted.

Fairness doesn't really enter into though. Bow need ammunition, and cantrips don't. It is what it is, and that fact doesn't mean you shouldn't track ammo.

Fairness enters into it as much or as little as we or the designers want it to. Cantrips could as easily require a small component cost, and the fact that the designers didn't give them one was a design choice. It's not an immutable fact of reality. Just a design choice in the game.

 

[mamba]

This statement drives me crazy and has for years. That has literally never existed. Caster spell slots are limited and many of those limited slots have to be devoted to combat. That leaves an extremely limited number for utility which are fairly specific in their use, while problems vary considerably.

that very much depends on how much time pressure you are under. Don’t have the right spell memorized today, come back tomorrow… depending on where you are, you can also allocate a lot of spells to this without too much risk

I am also ok with keeping a little of it, I definitely want it drastically reduced

If that 5th level wizard solves just 4 problems in an adventuring day, he's burned nearly half of his combat ability out.

Four is a heck of a lot for one day, now let the Fighter try the same four

 

[Maxperson]

that very much depends on how much time pressure you are under. Don’t have the right spell memorized today, come back tomorrow… depending on where you are, you can also allocate a lot of spells to this without too much risk

Sure, but then they've subbed out a different utility spell for the next day, so it's an opportunity cost. Also, if they're waiting until tomorrow, nobody else in the party could have solved it anyway or they would have done it, so it's not a big deal as nobody got pushed out of the spotlight by the caster.

 

[mamba]

You know..it really doesn't talk much about biology does it.

no it doesn’t

So acting like there is a biological justification for species' physical limitations is kinda nonsense isn't it?

no it isn’t. You asked for biological reasons and I gave you some. Now that they exist, it seems you rather ignore that, so why did you ask in the first place? Looks like you expected there to be none…

And we do not have to accept that there is biological similarity that allows interbreeding.

well, if you do not accept biological reasons, then why do you ask for ones…

As far as similar ability scores having any use in comparing creatures, I submit to you..

the Avatar of Death..
no attributes below an 8 or above a 16..

Must be basically a human..right? Let's look at the sheet.

no, but can basically lift similar weights, etc. as I already said. This is about capability, not biology.

The Avatar of Death cannot interbreed with humans

Nothing left to discuss

 

[Micah Sweet]

To my recollection he does once in the movies, and it happens in the books, as Micah noted.


Fairness enters into it as much or as little as we or the designers want it to. Cantrips could as easily require a small component cost, and the fact that the designers didn't give them one was a design choice. It's not an immutable fact of reality. Just a design choice in the game.

That's true, and if you don't like it (and I get why you wouldn't), then you change the rules.

 

[mamba]

Sure, but then they've subbed out a different utility spell for the next day, so it's an opportunity cost.

only if you have nothing else to do this day, if you are juggling three things anyway, little might be lost

Also, if they're waiting until tomorrow, nobody else in the party could have solved it anyway or they would have done it,

not true, it could have been been riskier, or they did not bother searching for a different solution since they already had an easy one

so it's not a big deal as nobody got pushed out of the spotlight by the caster.

I do not like the idea of every problem being for exactly one person to tackle while the others just sit around, let them all work on it / be able to help with it

 

[Gammadoodler]

no it doesn’t


no it isn’t. I gave you some real world reasons too since you asked for biological ones, seems you rather ignore that now


well, if you do not accept biological reasons, then why do you ask for ones…

Nothing left to discuss

Sorry..what real real-world reason?

And it's not that I don't accept interbreeding as a biological justification, it's that it's a super super weak argument.

Human has a baby with a demon, demon must be basically a human just doesn't track for me. Similarly for the other species.

And .. even if we did agree that interbreeding was a reliable indicator of similar capability, it's a two-way street. Could be the other species has human capabilities..could be that humans have capabilities in line with other species.

The argument has nothing to do with any independent specifics of the other species.

 

[Mannahnin]

That's true, and if you don't like it (and I get why you wouldn't), then you change the rules.

I can go either way with it. I do sympathize with the concern that the game mechanically disincentivizes archers compared to cantrip shooters.

I'd like carrying enough arrows and occasionally running out of them to be a genuine concern at least some of the time. I also think Gammadoodler has a point that in practice a lot of folks don't like doing the even minor bookkeeping, and that stuff like bags of holding can more or less obviate the issue, so the ROI on actually doing that minor accounting is often very low.

I tried out Five Torches Deep's somewhat abstracted Supply system in my most recent campaign, but it didn't seem to really work better than traditional counting & tracking. Their Load system for more abstracted encumbrance worked pretty well, though.

I think I'm going to give the Usage Die system next time, in combination with slot-based encumbrance.

 

[mamba]

Sorry..what real real-world reason?

the one right below?

And it's not that I don't accept interbreeding as a biological justification, it's that it's a super super weak argument.

it is a very strong one when you are looking for a biological reason

Human has a baby with a demon, demon must be basically a human just doesn't track for me. Similarly for the other species.

I accept that when you show me real world examples of it with a biological explanation.

You wanted a biological reason, if you do want to counter it, give me a better biological reason.

And .. even if we did agree that interbreeding was a reliable indicator of similar capability, it's a two-way street. Could be the other species has human capabilities..could be that humans have capabilities in line with other species.

yes, but the problem with that is that we already know what capabilities humans have, so they tell us about the other species, not the other way around…

 

[Gammadoodler]

I accept that when you show me real world examples of it with a biological explanation.

You wanted a biological reason, if you do want to counter it, give me a better biological reason.

Elves live hundreds of years and dont need to sleep. Some have innate magic.

Dwarves live hundreds of years and have a natural resustance to poisons.

Gnomes have an adult size of roughly a human toddler live hundreds of years and some have innate magic. No mention of interbreeding with humans.

Halflings have an adult size of roughly a human toddler yet can move at the same speed, lift and carry exactly the same amount as a medium sized creature. No mention of interbreeding with humans.

Orcs can instinctively just not die when they should be killed.

Warforged..have no biological mechanisms that I am aware of.

Tieflings have innate magic and explicitly fiendish heritage.

Aasimar have innate magic and explicitly celestial heritage.

Genasi have innate magic and explicitly genie heritage.

Dragonborn..breathe elemental energy.

Aaracockra can fly and have an explicitly shorter lifespan.

Lizardfolk have scales, have a natural swim speed, and hold their breath for 15 minutes at a time.

Tortles have a big-ass shell they lug around.

Tritons have a natural swim speed and can breathe underwater.

Shifters and Changelings can change their entire body structure

...etc.

All of these indicate biologies which differ dramatically from humans. Enough so, that any kind of argument that insists that they must have limitations substantially similar to real-world humans falls flat on its face for me.