What is the single best science fiction novel of all time?

[Parmandur]

Oh, I agree, but a lot of folks dont get all that from the films. Even readers can sometimes not catch the high context of the flaw, doom, repeat cycle.

Haven't seen the new film, but the earlier attempts were...flawed.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, lets just cancel him too.

Criticizing Dune for its misogyny, anti-lgbtq themes and the whole white saviour bit isn’t “cancelling” in the slightest. It’s simply acknowledging the text.

Something can be fantastic, the best even, and still have flaws.

It’s not like any of these criticisms are coming out of left field. They are well supported and quite well known. Which is fine.

That’s the point of criticism.

 

[Zaukrie]

Sorry I'm late to the thread.

I love sci fi books in general, but I think the best ones are the classics--I'm talking LeGuin, Huxley, Bradbury, Orwell, Asimov. I really appreciate the cautionary tales of the future, the struggle of man vs. technology, the things we lose (identity, security, community) in the service of scientific advancement...more than any other genre of fiction, sci-fi takes a critical look at humanity and the direction it is taking.

My favorite is "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelley. It's the best (albeit fictional) examination of ethics in science, and the consequences of ambition and curiosity. And it has the best line ever spoken by a villain: "I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other."

For those interested in my Top Ten:
Fahrenheit 451
10. "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" by Jules Verne
9. "The Foundation Trilogy" by Isaac Asimov
8. "Journey to the Center of the Earth" by Jules Verne
7. "The Time Machine" by H.G. Wells
6. "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley
5. "Fahrenheit 451" by Ray Bradbury
4. "I, Robot" by Isaac Asimov
3. "Slaughterhouse Five" by Kurt Vonnegut
2. "The Left Hand of Darkness" by Ursula LeGuin
1. "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelley

Honorable Mention:
"Flowers for Algernon" by Daniel Keyes
"Cat's Cradle" by Kurt Vonnegut
"The Martian Chronicles" by Ray Bradbury

Fahrenheit 451 is a good choice!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Criticizing Dune for its misogyny, anti-lgbtq themes and the whole white saviour bit isn’t “cancelling” in the slightest. It’s simply acknowledging the text.

Something can be fantastic, the best even, and still have flaws.

It’s not like any of these criticisms are coming out of left field. They are well supported and quite well known. Which is fine.

That’s the point of criticism.

Speaking of White saviors, I don't think it's a controversial take to say that Lawrence of Arabia is one of the best films of all time, full stop. But holy moley, do both the man and the movie have flaws.

That doesn't make the film not fantastic, though -- I'd argue that a viewer who's critical of Lawrence and how the movie lionizes him at times probably gets more out of the film than those who don't.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

And further down the road, (the other 5 novels that most people have not read) is when you get the brilliance of Herbert's narrative, you fully understand that its not about the "mighty-whitey" syndrome that you do see in so many other sci-fi films.

You will not find a bigger fan of the final three Dune books than me, but I don't think a semi-immortal White nepo baby deciding what's best for all of humanity really goes against the White savior trope at all.

 

[Hussar]

Heh. It’s like if you criticize Tolkien in any way it means you hate fantasy and eat puppies.

The point about Lawrence of Arabia is spot on.

 

[John Lloyd1]

I'm going to pull one from left field that most of you will never have heard of.

The Tom Rynosseros saga by Terry Dowling. Set in a future Australia where western culture was in the decline and indigenous culture was in the ascendency. I've never read anything like it before or since. And it has sand ships.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm going to pull one from left field that most of you will never have heard of.

The Tom Rynosseros saga by Terry Dowling. Set in a future Australia where western culture was in the decline and indigenous culture was in the ascendency. I've never read anything like it before or since. And it has sand ships.

I have indeed not heard of this and it sounds kind of amazing, hope they get it on Kindle or other ePub at some point so I can actually read it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The point is also clearly made in later books, where they flat out say that in order to produce humans who would never follow a tyrant again they had to grind them down for millennia under the heel of the worst of all possible tyrants: an immortal, prescient, religious messiah. All this so humans would never blindly, unquestioningly follow anyone ever again. They also selectively breed humans who are immune to prescience. Finally freeing humanity from tyranny and most forms of oppression. It's a cool point, but damn is it a slog to get there.

Fascinating. I don't think I ever made it past book 2 of Dune, because it was such a steep decline in quality from the first one.

Kind of an inversion, theme-wise, of Too Like The Lightning. Absolutely amazing first book, nearly won the best novel Hugo in 2017, envisioning this wild and ultra-progressive 2400s future (much as Star Trek is, but hard science this time), and featuring all sort of very strange events and characters, and sorry I'm going to spoiler it but the central plot is about both a conspiracy to murder people who might rock the boat of this civilization, and a very strange and kind of sympathetic being who might cause problems for it, and the seemingly dark forces and retrograde, grotesque, debauched elements who are gathering power in the shadows to overthrow the civilization.

Only, very slowly over the next three books, it becomes clear that, instead of it being about how, they save the civilization or try to find a way to genuinely better future, it's basically about how all the really dark forces and retrograde elements are "in the right", and we just to listen literally a collection of insane religious fanatics, actual fascist dictators, anti-trans bigots, Elon Musk-types and so on, and then the world will be a better place. Except, by any sane measure, the world in the last book is a drastically worse place for the vast majority of people in it.

Talk about a face-heel turn.

 

[Queer Venger]

Fair, though I don't even consider the sequels: the flawed and Doomed nature of all these tropes is pretty clear just from the original text, amd Paul can see it, too.

In Dune Messiah you get that Paul faces the terrible truth of what he has become and has created, essentially a cult of fanatics with a singular purpose. The remaining 5 novels are cautionary tales about corruption, power, genetics, religion.

Criticizing Dune for its misogyny, anti-lgbtq themes and the whole white saviour bit isn’t “cancelling” in the slightest. It’s simply acknowledging the text.

Something can be fantastic, the best even, and still have flaws.

It’s not like any of these criticisms are coming out of left field. They are well supported and quite well known. Which is fine.

That’s the point of criticism.

you expand it better. Im gay, Im a veteran. It's not lost on me. But: Paul is not a savior. He's a cautionary tale. Read in out of context and historicity anything can be problematic to modern (post-modern) readers. The fact that it continuously gets adapted and sold proves it is relevant. That is one of the important elements of sci-fi, relevance and message. Im actually really happy that this thread has become a debate on Dune