D&D General What is player agency to you?

[pemerton]

But that's pretty much what you said according to the bolded



Not sure how else to take those statements. You were the one who wrote ":...I could just sit back and let the GM narrate the whole story for me...I don't play RPGs to enjoy the GM's amateur novel or screenplay.... Genuine, rich, joint creation of the shared fiction...That needs rules that will mediate everyone's efforts at contribution..." Then stated that's how D&D works.

I said that "at least one edition of D&D has such rules". I was referring to 4e D&D. The rules in question, as per the post, are

rules that will mediate everyone's efforts at contribution, and that will be robust enough to do that even when what I'm trying to contribute is "The demons just wiped the floor with you and went on to destroy your friends and family too" and what the players are trying to contribute it "On the contrary, we banished them back to the Abyss in the name of Erathis and the Raven Queen."​

In other words, the only thing the post says about D&D is that at lest on edition - namely, 4e- has rules that are an alternative to GM story time.

Now if you think that your approach to D&D is not an alternative to GM story time, again that is on you.

 

[Oofta]

I said that "at least one edition of D&D has such rules". I was referring to 4e D&D. The rules in question, as per the post, are

rules that will mediate everyone's efforts at contribution, and that will be robust enough to do that even when what I'm trying to contribute is "The demons just wiped the floor with you and went on to destroy your friends and family too" and what the players are trying to contribute it "On the contrary, we banished them back to the Abyss in the name of Erathis and the Raven Queen."​

In other words, the only thing the post says about D&D is that at lest on edition - namely, 4e- has rules that are an alternative to GM story time.

Now if you think that your approach to D&D is not an alternative to GM story time, again that is on you.

So every edition other than 4E is GM story time, correct?

 

[pemerton]

So every edition other than 4E is GM story time, correct?

I didn't say anything about any other editions in that post. I did say "at least one edition" - namely, 4e - avoids story time. "At least" doesn't imply "no others"; and in another reply to you that I posted in the last 10 minutes or so I pointed out - once again - that I have run AD&D in a non-story-time fashion.

I've personally never seen AD&D 2nd ed run in a non-story-time fashion, but if there's someone out there doing it then they can tell us about it if they want to!

As far as 3E and 5e are concerned, I don't have much personal play experience. @hawkeyefan in this thread has had the most to say about different approaches to 5e that can vary the degree of player agency.

 

[Oofta]

I didn't say anything about any other editions in that post. I did say "at least one edition" - namely, 4e - avoids story time. "At least" doesn't imply "no others"; and in another reply to you that I posted in the last 10 minutes or so I pointed out - once again - that I have run AD&D in a non-story-time fashion.

I've personally never seen AD&D 2nd ed run in a non-story-time fashion, but if there's someone out there doing it then they can tell us about it if they want to!

As far as 3E and 5e are concerned, I don't have much personal play experience. @hawkeyefan in this thread has had the most to say about different approaches to 5e that can vary the degree of player agency.

Right, but then you go on to state that " Genuine, rich, joint creation of the shared fiction...That needs rules that will mediate everyone's efforts at contribution". You have to have joint creation. Therefore if you don't have joint creation you can't have genuine rich fiction. I don't really see a way around it.

Either you have to have a narrative game, even if the rules don't directly support it, in order to have a "worthy" game or you don't and narrative games are just your preference. I'm perfectly fine with the latter, everybody has different preferences.

Calling every D&D campaign that doesn't involve direct player contribution to the fiction (assuming the character's actions alone don't count as those contributions) like you prefer, "GM story time" is what I take issue with. It's condescending.

 

[Campbell]

So every edition other than 4E is GM story time, correct?

No. It is however a very popular way to play and run roleplaying games. Perhaps the most popular. As evidenced by Adventure Zone, Critical Role, Adventure Paths and the aftermath of White Wolf magazine that basically led linear play to be the dominant play culture within our hobby. There have always been people and groups not running games in that format though.

It has been the most common form of play I personally have encountered in more than 25 years in this hobby (and a style I have run on multiple occasions), including many accounts on these very boards. There's a reason why "the story" and "the plot" are mentioned so predominantly in discussions of tabletop RPGs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You keep imputing opinions to me that I haven't stated. The only thing I say in that post about D&D is that "at least one edition of D&D is among" the RPGs that provide rules as an alternative to GM story time.

If you think that, in referring to GMs telling the players a story, I'm talking about your RPGing that's on you!

If he plays anything other than 4e, you're talking about his RPGing. I'd be irritated too if I were him.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I didn't say anything about any other editions in that post. I did say "at least one edition" - namely, 4e - avoids story time. "At least" doesn't imply "no others"; and in another reply to you that I posted in the last 10 minutes or so I pointed out - once again - that I have run AD&D in a non-story-time fashion.

I've personally never seen AD&D 2nd ed run in a non-story-time fashion, but if there's someone out there doing it then they can tell us about it if they want to!

As far as 3E and 5e are concerned, I don't have much personal play experience. @hawkeyefan in this thread has had the most to say about different approaches to 5e that can vary the degree of player agency.

You realize that the phrase "GM Story Time" is deeply insulting right? Do you feel it's ok because not everyone likes storygames?

 

[pemerton]

Right, but then you go on to state that " Genuine, rich, joint creation of the shared fiction...That needs rules that will mediate everyone's efforts at contribution". You have to have joint creation. Therefore if you don't have joint creation you can't have genuine rich fiction. I don't really see a way around it.

If you don't have rules that mediate joint creation, and yet you have rich fiction, then that fiction wasn't produced jointly, was it? It was produced by the GM.

As @Campbell has just posted, this is a very common approach to RPGing. As best I can tell, from my own experience, plus reading about others' experiences, it is the predominant approach by a significant margin.

 

[Oofta]

No. It is however a very popular way to play and run roleplaying games. Perhaps the most popular. As evidenced by Adventure Zone, Critical Role, Adventure Paths and the aftermath of White Wolf magazine that basically led linear play to be the dominant play culture within our hobby. There have always been people and groups not running games in that format though.

It has been the most common form of play I personally have encountered in more than 25 years in this hobby (and a style I have run on multiple occasions), including many accounts on these very boards. There's a reason why "the story" and "the plot" are mentioned so predominantly in discussions of tabletop RPGs.

You can have a non-linear campaign without sharing the fiction of the world, you just need to give the players options and let them choose direction. The players in CR still make decisions, decide where to go. Admittedly CR is a bit more linear than my games. Modules tend to be linear because they're modules and pure setting books don't sell all that well. Although I would say that Dragon Heist tried to be a hybrid which confused the **** out of the DM that ran it for us as a standard linear module.

However calling a game "GM story time" because the players don't contribute directly to the fiction implies that the players are just passive zombies with no input. That's what I have an issue with.

 

[pemerton]

You realize that the phrase "GM Story Time" is deeply insulting right? Do you feel it's ok because not everyone likes storygames?

Eero Tuovinen uses the phrase "GM story hour" - https://www.arkenstonepublishing.net/isabout/2020/05/14/observations-on-gns-simulationism - in the course of explaining why he thinks it is worthwhile GMing. @clearstream has echoed Tuovinen in this thread.

I have no idea whether your or @Oofta are playing in that fashion or not. But it's a thing. The DL modules, CoC modules, Adventure Paths and the like are real things that happen in the world of RPGing.