D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[mamba]

Again, if it was only possible for maiar to use magic, they would have known he was Sauron before ever going there. They didn't know, because The Necromancer could have been a mortal.

If your argument boils down to 'there are more spellcasters than one Necromancer and five Wizards', then I agree

 

[Maxperson]

it matters when you want to establish how strong a caster should be that is not also secretly an angel

Nowhere have I seen it said or implied that the magic used by the wizards is greater than that of a necromancer or other mortal spellcaster. He had other divine abilities, yes, but his magic was separate from that.

 

[mamba]

Nowhere have I seen it said or implied that the magic used by the wizards is greater than that of a necromancer or other mortal spellcaster. He had other divine abilities, yes, but his magic was separate from that.

yes, you did not say so, but you also could not rule out that his powers come from being a Maia.

I think if you want to make an argument about how strong casters should be based on Tolkien, then you should look past any Maiar and see what that digs up.

 

[Maxperson]

yes, you did not say so, but you also could not rule out that his powers come from being a Maia.

As @Ruin Explorer said, Tolkien didn't choose his words indiscriminately. He chose to show maia power use from other maia as different from the spells cast by wizards. Osse didn't cast a spell to move the island with the elves on it. Melian didn't cast the Girdle of Melian. Gandalf did cast spells. They are different powers.

 

[mamba]

Osse didn't cast a spell to move the island with the elves on it. Melian didn't cast the Girdle of Melian. Gandalf did cast spells. They are different powers.

That does not really tell me that their spells were of the same power level as that of 'regular' races. I think having a non-Maia example for that would be better.

Even so, I am not sure I consider Gandalf all that powerful a caster when looking at D&D wizards. So I think we can even argue from him to take them down a notch

 

[billd91]

I do not believe Glorfindel is presented as a non-magical martial, especially since an entire river with flames comes down on the Ringwraiths pursing his horse. I also think it was Ringwraiths he faced, not Balrog although it has been a while.

This is aside from the fact that Elves themselves are magical in Tolkien and Glorfindel lit himself with magical light when he came to meet Frodo.

It can be difficult to fit characters into a class, but it is clear Gorfindel is not non-magical at all. If anything he is an example of why the Gish should be better than the pure non-caster.

On the topic of Glorfindel, I provide this link: Glorfindel

Glorfindel, as of the Fall of Gondolin, was a valiant warrior who slew a balrog in single combat. Though he ultimately fared no better than Gandalf since he was dragged to his death in the event. Elves may be magical in their bodies and crafts, at least from a more mundane mortal’s perspective, but it’s hard to argue they normally fight with magic. There’s no evidence in the descriptions of the events that Glorfindel did so in his fight with the balrog. He seems pretty straight up fighter at that time (which is to say First Age fighter which says a lot in comparison with the populations of later ages).

Glorfindel is ultimately sent back enhanced by Mandos to be an emissary to be roughly similar to Maiar power. That gives him the might necessary to chase Nazgul around at the very least. But how that translates into discrete magical powers is a question of art, not clear textual exegesis.

 

[Maxperson]

That does not really tell me that their spells were of the same power level as that of 'regular' races. I think having a non-Maia example for that would be better.

Even so, I am not sure I consider Gandalf all that powerful a caster when looking at D&D wizards. So I think we can even argue from him to take them down a notch

He hurled 3 lightning bolts in the goblin caves in The Hobbit, which by the way was an example of orc magic since they opened a big fissure in the wall in seconds. They didn't do that mundanely. He casts several fireballs on Weathertop. In 5e that makes him minimum 7th level and in 3.5 8th level. He used Telekinesis to disarm Legolas and Aragorn, which since that's a 5th level spell now raises him to a minimum of 9th level. He threatens to polymorph one of the hobbits into a toad which is a 4th level spell.

So he's at LEAST 9th level, which makes him higher level than something like 90% or 95% of players according to that chart D&D Beyond released.

Of course, he then took on a Balrog(Balor) one on one and fought to a draw(both died). Those are CR 20 in 3.5 and CR 19 in 5e. That puts him close to 20th level since those are meant to be a challenge for a group of 4 PCs of those CR numbers. We just do get to see him unleash his high level spells. They happen off-screen.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

He hurled 3 lightning bolts in the goblin caves in The Hobbit, which by the way was an example of orc magic since they opened a big fissure in the wall in seconds. They didn't do that mundanely. He casts several fireballs on Weathertop. In 5e that makes him minimum 7th level and in 3.5 8th level. He used Telekinesis to disarm Legolas and Aragorn, which since that's a 5th level spell now raises him to a minimum of 9th level. He threatens to polymorph one of the hobbits into a toad which is a 4th level spell.

So he's at LEAST 9th level, which makes him higher level than something like 90% or 95% of players according to that chart D&D Beyond released.

Of course, he then took on a Balrog(Balor) one on one and fought to a draw(both died). Those are CR 20 in 3.5 and CR 19 in 5e. That puts him close to 20th level since those are meant to be a challenge for a group of 4 PCs of those CR numbers. We just do get to see him unleash his high level spells. They happen off-screen.

Yet, despite all that, some of his "greatest" feats of magic--helping to turn the tide of wars--are pretty clearly at far lower power.

The problem with Wizards in 5e--as it has been in nearly every edition of D&D--is that they absorb the powers of dozens of media. Gandalf has a bazillion limitations on him that Wizards don't. Or, as I put it previously:

The D&D Wizard has the power of Gandalf or (Malory's) Merlin, the versatility of Dumbledore or (Disney's) Merlin, and the frequency of Doctor Fate or (DC Comics) Merlin. That is, phenomenal cosmic power (up to and including literally rewriting reality), the ability to perform almost any act one might want to if you just have enough time to research the appropriate spell, and a power supply that is theoretically limited but practically inexhaustible because it's always at least somewhat under the Wizard's control.

If it can be viewed as a spell, it can be structured as something the D&D Wizard can do--with the lone exception of specifically healing/restoring magics, as that is the one thing Wizards have been told they aren't allowed to do (unless, of course, they bring in the rule-breaking spells like anyspell and, of course, wish, which can do anything.)

 

[Micah Sweet]

To me? Yes, because Tolkien uses the term wizard precisely and limited, but YMMV. Wizard and "spellcaster" are quite different things. I mean, I don't think Tolkien didn't call The Necromancer The Wizard just by accident.

MERP was honestly amazing. One of the least lore-and-tone accurate LotR-based TT RPGs but one of the most fun and fascinating ones (and what it lacked in accuracy it made up for in enthusiasm!).

The critical hit tables absolutely blew me away.

 

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