D&D 5E Tedium for balance. Should we balance powerful effects with bookkeeping?

[UngainlyTitan]

And so it should have the same requirements no matter what. What did you think I meant?

Then I think you missed the point of the post I was responding to and definitely missed the point I was making. Which was the design of the spell.
The problem I see with spells like plane shift is that the components exclude their use in many planar adventures. It is easier to provide a portal (or something else) if planar travel is needed.
Particularly in published material. Even if the party has access to the spell, running a side adventure to obtain a focus is going to rob the main plot of momentum.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I think the intention is the opposite. If the adventure requires planar travel, it will be provided to them as much as needed. The plane shift spell is merely additional power that a player can access.

I think there should never be any adventure that requires a certain spell or ability to continue to play.

I would agree, which is why I think the spell as designed is redundant.
If it was designed more like teleport it would be somewhat better.

 

[Stormonu]

Got it. In that case, absolutely. Component pouches were a terrible mistake. The game is deeply enriched by casters actually keeping and using components.

That's a funny thing. My first games I DMed were B/X, which had no spell components. I got to AD&D and saw the spell components and thought, "Cute, that's a nice bit of immersion." Most of the time, if the components weren't significant in some way (Stoneskin's powdered diamond dust being one I recall), I just hand-waved them, assuming these high-int Wizards had the sense to keep around the items they needed for these spells (Besides, the players ought to be tracking this stuff on their own sheets...). Until the inevitable adventure where all their gear gets taken away or they've been in the desert too long...

As a Wizard player in 2E, I hated tracking the components, sometimes having to scour a dungeon for components because my brother is a Lawful Evil Rules Lawyer Bastard ("Everybody keep an eye out for spiders. I need to swallow one so I can go investigate that glow on the other side of the chasm").

So for 5E, I'm not sure where I fall. I kinda wish spell component pouches were like a quiver and had X number of charges that needed to be replished (the pouch itself being a sort of magical item in the first place), or perhaps the spell could be done without them, but actually having the component gave some sort of bonus.

 

[Tonguez]

Powerful effects should be costed (tedium) and then subjected to a randomizer (dice roll),
cost can legitamately include Time (as per OP), Resources (Spell components), Lore or Role Playing

none of it should face massive book work (other than the initial setting of DCs and calculating effects etc)

Raising the Dead should always require Roleplaying (and a quest) to achieve

 

[aco175]

no, because most people just ignore it, as you wrote, and then your ‘carefully crafted’ balance disappears.

True this.

I kind of like something to fit in with story design, but once it is ignored then the 5,000gp gem is 'forgotten' or just somehow 'found' on the PC sheet.

I did have a game where a temple had a book of +2 strength that had been sitting around for 99 years since it takes 100 years to recharge. There was a lottery and such to see who could read it next year.

 

[billd91]

I'm not sure I agree with the labeling of bookkeeping as necessarily "tedious". It can be a valuable addition to certain types of games - ones that incorporate finite resources. And I find that an important aspect of D&D - the need for players to make choices that they wouldn't have to if they were playing something more like Mutants and Masterminds where resources are generally unlimited (unless specifically bought with a limitation).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Then I think you missed the point of the post I was responding to and definitely missed the point I was making. Which was the design of the spell.
The problem I see with spells like plane shift is that the components exclude their use in many planar adventures. It is easier to provide a portal (or something else) if planar travel is needed.
Particularly in published material. Even if the party has access to the spell, running a side adventure to obtain a focus is going to rob the main plot of momentum.

How do they exclude their use? I know coming prepared is currently out of fashion, but that's how you deal with these things if casting a spell is the option you intend to use.

 

[Micah Sweet]

True this.

I kind of like something to fit in with story design, but once it is ignored then the 5,000gp gem is 'forgotten' or just somehow 'found' on the PC sheet.

I did have a game where a temple had a book of +2 strength that had been sitting around for 99 years since it takes 100 years to recharge. There was a lottery and such to see who could read it next year.

Then...don't ignore it. I really don't see the problem. "The rules are a problem because some people ignore the rules" makes no sense to me.

 

[overgeeked]

So for 5E, I'm not sure where I fall. I kinda wish spell component pouches were like a quiver and had X number of charges that needed to be replished (the pouch itself being a sort of magical item in the first place), or perhaps the spell could be done without them, but actually having the component gave some sort of bonus.

That’s a great idea. Refill your component pouch by buying components in towns, gathering in the wild, or harvesting bits from monsters. Get so many uses back based on the check or filling up for coin in town. That’s almost exactly the same as an idea I was noodling around with to deal with encumbrance and sweating PC gear.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

How do they exclude their use? I know coming prepared is currently out of fashion, but that's how you deal with these things if casting a spell is the option you intend to use.

There is no need to exclude anything. However gating a plot behind a resource the party does not have is bad design. But I have never seen the wizard voluntarily taking plane shift.