D&D 5E Are "evil gods" necessary? [THREAD NECRO]

[Incenjucar]

I'm generally a fan of the D&D belief-powered divinity, but I like to make it easier to maintain, and closer to Shinto in how local spirits can obtain a degree of power from even meager worship. It creates a lot of natural escalating conflict material.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'm not a fan of D&D's 'public' evil gods that every one's heard of an might just have temple on 5th and Main.

I'd rather have all gods be gods of their portfolio with everyone having both good and evil sects, or if you must have evil gods, they need a good secret network dealing going on and the setting absolutely not have a proven Hell because THAT is a dealbreaker.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm not a fan of D&D's 'public' evil gods that every one's heard of an might just have temple on 5th and Main.

I'd rather have all gods be gods of their portfolio with everyone having both good and evil sects, or if you must have evil gods, they need a good secret network dealing going on and the setting absolutely not have a proven Hell because THAT is a dealbreaker.

This is my preference.

But I do like the 4e version of a few purely evil gods like Vecna and Asmodeus stealing divinity.

To me, divinity is a thing you must have to be a god. There is no amount of belief that gets you if without having that door unlocked.

Evil gods serve as goals for evil non-gods to become. It is something that drives them and can act as the logic behind high level play. You ain't just fighting demons. You are stopping a powerful demon from taking a mantle or portfolio.

Useful, not necessary. But very useful.

 

[pemerton]

Divinity in D&D has been belief based since 1e.

<snip>

Beings on par with gods are out there and are still not gods, so sufficiently powerful can't be the criterion that establishes godhood. True divinity also doesn't really apply, since mortals can ascend to godhood and godhood can be stripped away, which wouldn't be possible with a true god. Belief is the key.

I'm not super deep on the 4e nature of godhood, but my understanding is that 4e core Asmodeus the then arch-angel fighting the Abyss and demons took part of the Shard of Evil to create his Ruby Rod, power himself up, and then betrayed the God of Humanity he worked for and took his divine power, not that he developed cults that gave him divine power.

I don't remember core discussion about 4e gods being tied to worship or cults as the path to ascension.

To the best of my recollection, there is no suggestion in the relevant 4e books (W&M, DMG, MoP, The Plane Above) that being a god depends on worship.

4e also has priests and cultists of Demons (eg the deathpriest of Orcus). The difference between Gods and Demons and Primordials and so on is about their metaphysical nature and allegiance, not their function vis-a-vis mortal worshippers.

Here are the rules for Divine Ascension from the AD&D DMG (p 11):

As study of the various mythologies will show, it is remotely possible for mortals to ascend into the ranks of the divine. However, there are certainrequirements that must be fulfilled before such a thing could happen.

First, the character in question must have advanced to an experience level that is significantly above and beyond the average level of adventure-type characters in the general campaign. (This includes all such non-player types as military leaders, royal magic-users, etc.) For example, if the average level of characters in a campaign, both player and non-player, is around 5th level, then a candidate for ascension should be something like 9th or 10th level. If the average level is something like 15th, then a character would have to be in the realm of 25th-30th level!

Second, his or her ability scores must have been raised through some mighty world-shaking magic to be on par with the lesser demigods. (Should such an act be lightly considered, remember that a wish spell is the most powerful magic that mankind can control, and such an average increase in abilities would literally take the power of dozens of wishes! Each use of that spell weakens the caster and ages him 3 years into the bargain, so they are not easy to come by.)

Third, the personage must have a body of sincere worshipers, people convinced of his or her divinity due to their witnessing of and/or belief in the mighty deeds and miracles which he or she has performed (and continues to perform). These must be genuine worshipers, honest in their adoration or propitiation of the person.

Fourth, the person in question must be and have been a faithful and true follower of his or her alignment and patron deity. It is certain that any deviation will have been noted by the divine powers.

If all of the above conditions have been met, and the character has fulfilled a sufficient number of divine quests, then the character's deity may choose to invest the person with a certain amount of divine power, and bring the character into the ranks of the god's celestial (or infernal) servants. This process of ascension usually involves a great glowing beam of light and celestial fanfare, or (in the case of those transmigrating to the lower planes), a blotting of the sun, thunder and lightning, and the disappearance of the character in a great smoky explosion. Characters thus taken into the realms of the gods will serve their patron as minor functionaries and messengers. After several centuries of superior service and gradual advancement, exceptional servants may be awarded the status of demigod, which includes having an earthly priesthood and the ability to grant spells (of up to 5th level) to the demigod's clerics.

Naturally, ascension to divinity effectively removes the character from the general campaign, as the person will become a non-player member of the DM's pantheon.​

This does not make godhood a function of belief/worship either; it uses a notion of investing the worthy with divine power.

 

[Lanefan]

​

Third, the personage must have a body of sincere worshipers, people convinced of his or her divinity due to their witnessing of and/or belief in the mighty deeds and miracles which he or she has performed (and continues to perform). These must be genuine worshipers, honest in their adoration or propitiation of the person.​

​

This does not make godhood a function of belief/worship either; it uses a notion of investing the worthy with divine power.

The two bolded pieces would seem to disagree with each other here, as if you ain't got worshippers you can't reach divinity.

 

[Maxperson]

To the best of my recollection, there is no suggestion in the relevant 4e books (W&M, DMG, MoP, The Plane Above) that being a god depends on worship.

4e also has priests and cultists of Demons (eg the deathpriest of Orcus). The difference between Gods and Demons and Primordials and so on is about their metaphysical nature and allegiance, not their function vis-a-vis mortal worshippers.

Here are the rules for Divine Ascension from the AD&D DMG (p 11):

As study of the various mythologies will show, it is remotely possible for mortals to ascend into the ranks of the divine. However, there are certainrequirements that must be fulfilled before such a thing could happen.​

​

First, the character in question must have advanced to an experience level that is significantly above and beyond the average level of adventure-type characters in the general campaign. (This includes all such non-player types as military leaders, royal magic-users, etc.) For example, if the average level of characters in a campaign, both player and non-player, is around 5th level, then a candidate for ascension should be something like 9th or 10th level. If the average level is something like 15th, then a character would have to be in the realm of 25th-30th level!​

​

Second, his or her ability scores must have been raised through some mighty world-shaking magic to be on par with the lesser demigods. (Should such an act be lightly considered, remember that a wish spell is the most powerful magic that mankind can control, and such an average increase in abilities would literally take the power of dozens of wishes! Each use of that spell weakens the caster and ages him 3 years into the bargain, so they are not easy to come by.)​

​

Third, the personage must have a body of sincere worshipers, people convinced of his or her divinity due to their witnessing of and/or belief in the mighty deeds and miracles which he or she has performed (and continues to perform). These must be genuine worshipers, honest in their adoration or propitiation of the person.​

​

Fourth, the person in question must be and have been a faithful and true follower of his or her alignment and patron deity. It is certain that any deviation will have been noted by the divine powers.​

​

If all of the above conditions have been met, and the character has fulfilled a sufficient number of divine quests, then the character's deity may choose to invest the person with a certain amount of divine power, and bring the character into the ranks of the god's celestial (or infernal) servants. This process of ascension usually involves a great glowing beam of light and celestial fanfare, or (in the case of those transmigrating to the lower planes), a blotting of the sun, thunder and lightning, and the disappearance of the character in a great smoky explosion. Characters thus taken into the realms of the gods will serve their patron as minor functionaries and messengers. After several centuries of superior service and gradual advancement, exceptional servants may be awarded the status of demigod, which includes having an earthly priesthood and the ability to grant spells (of up to 5th level) to the demigod's clerics.​

​

Naturally, ascension to divinity effectively removes the character from the general campaign, as the person will become a non-player member of the DM's pantheon.​

This does not make godhood a function of belief/worship either; it uses a notion of investing the worthy with divine power.

1e Deities & Demigods page 5...

"At first glance, Dungeon Masters may well find the profusion of gods and goddesses in this work confusing. The DM will have to consider with care before choosing which pantheon or pantheons to use in his or her campaign. The DM should consider the flavor of the campaign: is it medieval, ancient, oriental, or different from all of these? Which pantheon(s) will be most appropriate to the milieu? (It is possible to imagine a campaign where all the gods in this book - and perhaps more - are co-existent. This would require a truly vast world, one large enough to contain all of the worshipers necessary to sustain such a multiplicity of gods! Perhaps, as in the ancient world, such different pantheons are worshiped in different regions.)"

1e Deities & Demigods page 8...

"The source of a deity's god heads is in some way connected to his or her earthly worshipers, though in what manner the gods derive this power is a mystery totally beyond mortal (or immortal) comprehension. However, it is true that a god's power often increases or
decreases as the number of his worshipers varies. Thus deities, and clerics as their agents, constantly try to increase the quantity and quality of their worshipers."

 

[Sepulchrave II]

The notion of the gods needing worship - and their power being proportional to their worshippers' number (and quality) comes to D&D primarily through Leiber (Lean Times in Lankhmar and Under the Thumbs of the Gods) and Moorcock (where it's pretty ubiquitous), but the trope has a long history. Also in Fred Saberhagen, IIRC.

The Epic of Gilgamesh suggests that the gods would starve without their worshippers' sacrifices; Aristophanes in the Birds has a flock block the smoke rising to the gods and threaten to starve them - these are related ideas.

It crops up biblically - you defeat your neighbour, kill and enslave the population, steal the idol and other temple goods (usually to melt down) and disempower the god.

Much more recently, Pratchett and Gaiman.

I think it's a pretty persistent idea.

 

[Minigiant]

In D&D, a god needing worship and a god's power being relative to their number of worshippers feel like 2 separate things.

A D&D god only needs their domain/portfolio/title. A god needs to be a god or goddess of something. As long as that something still exists, they draw power from it

This is how most evil gods and goddesses stay alive. They are typically gods of "Bad Crap that never goes Away". Depending on the setting or edition, the leech more or less during and around these events.

Then they get power from number of worshippers. They grow power with followers and therefore are encouraged to promote their portfolio or fear of it

Then there is the secondary concern: death or loss of followers. Lots of followers mean lot of power which holds back the not-gods looking to steal your domain. The old "Orcus wants the Death domain" problem. A god will little followers is a prime target to assassination and more importantly has a weaker claim on their domain.

And if the thing or people you are a god of no longer exists, only an overgod can keep you propped up.

It's less that Gods need Worshippers as much Worshippers are a buffer from your domain/portfolio being stolen, forgotten, or lost.

 

[pemerton]

The two bolded pieces would seem to disagree with each other here, as if you ain't got worshippers you can't reach divinity.

No they don't. Having sincere worshippers is a necessary marker of worthiness for ascension. But the rules make it clear that it is the character's divine patron, not their worshippers, that brings about the ascension.

1e Deities & Demigods page 5...

"At first glance, Dungeon Masters may well find the profusion of gods and goddesses in this work confusing. The DM will have to consider with care before choosing which pantheon or pantheons to use in his or her campaign. The DM should consider the flavor of the campaign: is it medieval, ancient, oriental, or different from all of these? Which pantheon(s) will be most appropriate to the milieu? (It is possible to imagine a campaign where all the gods in this book - and perhaps more - are co-existent. This would require a truly vast world, one large enough to contain all of the worshipers necessary to sustain such a multiplicity of gods! Perhaps, as in the ancient world, such different pantheons are worshiped in different regions.)"

Given that having different pantheons worshipped in different regions doesn't increase the number of worshippers (if anything, it appears to dilute that number) I take "sustain" here to mean in the sense of a coherent sense of purpose and differentiation, rather than in the sense of feeding.

1e Deities & Demigods page 8...

"The source of a deity's god heads is in some way connected to his or her earthly worshipers, though in what manner the gods derive this power is a mystery totally beyond mortal (or immortal) comprehension. However, it is true that a god's power often increases or decreases as the number of his worshipers varies. Thus deities, and clerics as their agents, constantly try to increase the quantity and quality of their worshipers."

Even this one refers to the connection being a mystery beyond mortal comprehension - hence presumably you and I cannot comprehend it! And what follows refers to "often", not "always".

 

[Maxperson]

In D&D, a god needing worship and a god's power being relative to their number of worshippers feel like 2 separate things.

A D&D god only needs their domain/portfolio/title. A god needs to be a god or goddess of something. As long as that something still exists, they draw power from it

This is how most evil gods and goddesses stay alive. They are typically gods of "Bad Crap that never goes Away". Depending on the setting or edition, the leech more or less during and around these events.

Then they get power from number of worshippers. They grow power with followers and therefore are encouraged to promote their portfolio or fear of it

Then there is the secondary concern: death or loss of followers. Lots of followers mean lot of power which holds back the not-gods looking to steal your domain. The old "Orcus wants the Death domain" problem. A god will little followers is a prime target to assassination and more importantly has a weaker claim on their domain.

And if the thing or people you are a god of no longer exists, only an overgod can keep you propped up.

It's less that Gods need Worshippers as much Worshippers are a buffer from your domain/portfolio being stolen, forgotten, or lost.

This is proven over and over not to be true. Even evil gods in D&D throughout the editions have lost power and "died" as they were forgotten by their worshippers and belief.

I certainly wouldn't have an issue with a DM who changed things to be as you describe above, but the above is not the default for how gods get their power. Also, note that it doesn't have to be worshippers, but can be a belief in the portfolio they embody. Someone doesn't have to worship death for a god of death to get power, but merely believe in death. That's why gods of death are almost always intermediate or greater gods. Just about everyone has a belief in death. Same with murder and other evils. Belief in such things is strong, even if those who believe dislike those things.

Power levels also drop as you get more specific. The god of death is a greater god, but the god of death in battle is usually a demigod or lesser god, and the god of death by falling down the stairs in the wee hours of the night is barely a god at all. It's good to be the god of a broad belief.