D&D 5E Are "evil gods" necessary? [THREAD NECRO]

[Amrûnril]

In a world where agnosticism is not an option, i.e.: it is an objective fact of the world that powerful beings exist that are called gods and have significant power to determine how pleasant or unpleasant your afterlife is...

I think the answer is an extremely firm "Yes, they are necessary" if you want people to act in anyway approaching plausible behavior. I will explain:

Some loose premises:
1.) We know that gods exist
2.) There are no "evil" gods who might shelter or protect evil do'ers in the afterlife
3.) We know that "good" gods punish evil do'ers in the afterlife
When you combine these three loose premises together, it would make no sense that anyone would ever actually be evil. It would be like saying "If you do 'x' you will be punished in the most extreme and eternal way possible" Why would anyone choose to do 'x' given the knowledge of premises 1 - 3?

One could argue that a god who will inflict punishments "in the most extreme and eternal way possible" is, in fact, an evil god.

Aside from this definitional question, though, intervention from evil gods is only one of many ways evil doers might hope to get away with their transgressions, especially in settings where deities are not assumed to be omniscient.

 

[Voadam]

It's a premise that that knowledge is had.

I had missed that. It is more than a bit off for a lot of D&D afterlife cosmology though.

Great Wheel generally you become an outsider on the plane corresponding to your alignment. Karmic/judgmental punishment is not really the wages of D&D evil.

FR you end up with your patron god's specific afterlife, with a few exceptions for the Wall of the Faithless. Evil afterflives can be nifty, particularly as the gods compete for worshippers to power them up. I am not sure how good the afterlife of the lawful good god of suffering and martyrdom is, I'd have to look up his specifics.

Dawn War you go to the Shadowfell temporarily then off to an unknown fate.

Some loose premises:
1.) We know that gods exist
2.) There are no "evil" gods who might shelter or protect evil do'ers in the afterlife
3.) We know that "good" gods punish evil do'ers in the afterlife

All you need here is part of three to get to the heart of your question.

3) We know that evil do'ers are punished in the afterlife.

Why would anyone be evil if they know they would be punished in the afterlife?

A couple reasons still come to mind.

1) Willing to pay the price of punishment for x reason.
2) Knowing but can't help themself.
3) Figure once they've screwed up they are in for a penny in for a pound.
4) Afterlife punishment is later/I won't die.

 

[Maxperson]

1) Willing to pay the price of punishment for x reason.
2) Knowing but can't help themself.
3) Figure once they've screwed up they are in for a penny in for a pound.
4) Afterlife punishment is later/I won't die.

And then there the first one mentioned upthread. Irrationality. Mortal races are really good at being irrational and the infernal beings are good at stoking that fire.

 

[Micah Sweet]

On further reflection, I’ve been thinking of gods largely as objects of worship, but there’s certainly a case for gods as objects of fear. Maybe “Good” gods could be viewed as the entities you make sacrifices to in prayer for favorable outcomes, while “evil” gods are the ones you make sacrifices to in hopes of appeasing, to avoid some unfavorable outcome. But I think I would still prefer most if not all gods to have aspects of both. You pray to the sky god for fair weather but also appease him to avoid being smote by lightning. You pray to the agricultural god for good harvest but also appease her to avoid drought. You pray to the warrior god for victory but also appease him to avoid being raided or conquered. You pray to the underworld god both to protect the souls of your loved ones but also appease her in hopes she doesn’t come for yours yet. Etc.

Good point. Nothing says that worshipping Zeus means you don't believe in Typhon and aren't terrified of him.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I guess it depends probably on whether the DM considers 'god' to be a title or a creature type?

Myself, I've always considered it the former. And the way I've looked at it goes along with how the gods are portrayed in Mythic Odysseys of Theros... where it comes down to worshippers and its their belief and faith is what generates the power to ascend a being to that status.

In 4E Asmodeus is both the lord of the Archdevils and is one of the gods of the Dawn War pantheon because he has the amount of believers necessary to make him such. Likewise it seems to be how normal humans ascend to divinity in places like the Realms, when their status and renown reaches a point where they gain followers and worshippers. At some point, if enough people treat you like a god, then you are one. Basically the same premise of the Pharaohs in Ancient Egypt, yes? "Living gods" and all that?

So with that in mind... from a world-building perspective it could basically comes down to the equitable balance between mortals and divine beings. Divine beings need worshippers because their faith generates the power necessary for the being to ascend to godhood and become all-powerful / immortal... and mortals are granted power and stability from their gods in order to help facilitate their faith and belief. It's a two-way street-- faith creates divine power and divine power generates faith. And as soon as either side stop in the transaction, the divine being loses their power and falls down the ranks.

In my own setting, the current crop of gods were all epic level characters who ascended to the heavens to fight the previous generation of Primordials, who were destroying the world in their own battles for supremacy. One died and another betrayed the others and was imprisoned, but the other 18 defeated the Primordials and became the new gods.

 

[Maxperson]

In my own setting, the current crop of gods were all epic level characters who ascended to the heavens to fight the previous generation of Primordials, who were destroying the world in their own battles for supremacy. One died and another betrayed the others and was imprisoned, but the other 18 defeated the Primordials and became the new gods.

Super cool story.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Super cool story.

Thanks! There's a lot more to it of course, but that's the god "myth".

 

[Lanefan]

It's a premise that that knowledge is had.

There's where your point falls down, in that this is a faulty premise even in a game world where the deities are active.

 

[Maxperson]

Thanks! There's a lot more to it of course, but that's the god "myth".

Oh, I figured that there was more to it. You don't strike me as the type to leave it at just that.

 

[pemerton]

I don't think anyone is that irrational. For example, if someone said "Would you like to exist in eternal bliss for all eternity, or suffer unimaginable torment for all eternity" literally no one (and I am using the word literally literally) would choose the latter if they had perfect comprehension of these terms.

You've had a number of replies.

All I'll add is that your argument seems similar to Plato's argument that no one can knowingly do evil. It's a highly contentious argument!