D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Crimson Longinus]

Why wouldn't harnessing the power of magic be just as exhausting as swinging a weapon? It might be mental/spiritual exhaustion, as opposed to physical, but if the DM allows the wizard to cast infinite cantrips but imposes exhaustion on a fighter hacking down a door, that clearly speaks to a bias. Neither activity results in exhaustion per the rules, so it comes down to the DMs ruling. And if you rule one way for martials and the other way for casters, on your head be the consequences.

Yep. That you can do either for every round of combat that takes less than a minute doesn't necessarily mean that you could do them whole day. And I'd flat out say that you can't.

 

[ECMO3]

The bolded comes as no surprise: for 30+ years players of wizards have been a very loud and vocal group, who generally want things made easier for wizards (and by extension themselves, their players) and who during that period have had IMO far too great an influence on the game's design.

That is one interpretation of the reason, but the point is from a practical perspective it is not realistic to think WOTC will nerf Wizards either in number of spells or slots. For that reason if we are talking about solutions for official 5E content it is not a viable suggestion.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why wouldn't harnessing the power of magic be just as exhausting as swinging a weapon? It might be mental/spiritual exhaustion, as opposed to physical, but if the DM allows the wizard to cast infinite cantrips but imposes exhaustion on a fighter hacking down a door, that clearly speaks to a bias. Neither activity results in exhaustion per the rules, so it comes down to the DMs ruling. And if you rule one way for martials and the other way for casters, on your head be the consequences.

Fair enough, but axes are just not as big a deal as continuous, sourceless flame (or cold, or lightning).

 

[I'm A Banana]

Note this is a plus thread.

If your response to the thread title is any variation of "nothing" or "there is no problem" or "I haven't experienced this problem" or "I like that this is a problem," then this thread isn't for you. Please keep that comment to yourself and move on.

The premise of the thread is: in D&D 5E there is a caster / non-caster gap and casters dominate non-casters.

If you want to argue against the premise of the thread, then this thread isn't for you. Please keep those comments to yourself and move on.

#

So the question is: what specifically can D&D 5E do to fix this problem?

The two obvious broad solutions are varying degrees of nerf the casters and buff the non-casters.

Cool. But how?

Eliminate the idea of classes and "non-magical" characters. Then, put character options into adventure rewards.

Everyone is magical. Everyone wields magic. Everyone is an "adventurer" or a "hero," and their abilities differ primarily in aesthetics. Everyone can heal like a cleric, because everyone can cast cure wounds roughly 3/day. Everyone can call down meteors, either with magic learned from arcane tomes, or this rod that makes me the Sky King, or a sword that slices a hole in the heavens.

So why does everyone not always have the most powerful abilities?

Because character options are not part of your class. You don't get to build your character in a vacuum. You have to choose your powers from amongst those granted by an adventure that you complete.

So, anyone can cast cure wounds roughly 3/day. Because the ability to do that lies, say, in getting a blessing from the Goddess of Healing. And anyone who cleanses the abandoned temple of undead could get that ability. Not just "clerics," but anyone who wants to do the Goddess of Healing a solid.

And that's not all. Maybe the same adventure lets you uncover a necromantic ritual that encases you in heavy bone. It's heavy armor. You don't get that because you're a fighter, you get that because you found it in an adventure, and any member of your party can have it.

Maybe the adventure also contains a sacred blade that deals extra radiant damage (it's a radiant sneak attack, and you get it through your quest, not through being a rogue or picking the right subclass).

And a scroll that you could learn the ray of sickness spell from. Anyone can learn it. It's just lying in the big bad's treasure hoard.

And now you have four items for a team of four that covers some common archetypes. But as you go on more adventures, you can mix and match based on what your characters are like. Maybe the one in heavy bone also picks up the ability to infuriate people into an incoherent rage from an adventure featuring the fey, and they're putting together a solid provocation build with a high AC. Maybe whoever casts ray of sickness now picks up a healing ability later.

So it's not Wizards Get Teleport. It's The Party Gets Teleport, and anyone the party thinks makes sense gets to use it. And it's not "justify how this warrior can only use their purely physical ability three times before they're too exhausted," it's "the magical sword lets you do this special move three times and then it can't because it's magic."

You wanna be the purely physical barbarian? Focus on magic that enhances your life force and your big blows. Wanna be Batman? Great, focus on magic that enhances stealth, intimidation, and your ability to tie people up.

And as a DM, you control the subtlety of your world. Want things relatively grounded? You never have to give out the wand that summons angels. You can keep it entirely in "cool bike tricks" land.

And because everyone is playing one class that can use everything, no one will look at the difference and grumble about it being unfair. You can respec between adventures easily. Try out different builds without trying out different characters.

Keep Backgrounds, so someone who wants to be a thief or a warrior still has some grounding and initial equipment in the right area. And, of course, feats and ASI's will affect what build someone might want to do, what items they might want to use.

But one effective way to get people to stop going over class features with a fine tooth comb grousing about power levels is to put the difference in the playing of the game, rather than the building of a character. And then to accept that D&D is (out of the box anyway) about magical people in a magical world doing magical things. Lean into it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And the rules have something different to say about attacking with an ax?
I mean, other than 'holding an ax' instead of "know firebolt" and "twice every 6 seconds" if you have the Extra Attack feature.... ?

See my message above, and think about from an in-universe perspective, where the combat rules have are "real". Imagine watching a movie where a wizard is doing this.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That is one interpretation of the reason, but the point is from a practical perspective it is not realistic to think WOTC will nerf Wizards either in number of spells or slots. For that reason if we are talking about solutions for official 5E content it is not a viable suggestion.

I'm basically never talking about solutions for official 5e content.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Eliminate the idea of classes and "non-magical" characters. Then, put character options into adventure rewards.

Everyone is magical. Everyone wields magic. Everyone is an "adventurer" or a "hero," and their abilities differ primarily in aesthetics. Everyone can heal like a cleric, because everyone can cast cure wounds roughly 3/day. Everyone can call down meteors, either with magic learned from arcane tomes, or this rod that makes me the Sky King, or a sword that slices a hole in the heavens.

So why does everyone not always have the most powerful abilities?

Because character options are not part of your class. You don't get to build your character in a vacuum. You have to choose your powers from amongst those granted by an adventure that you complete.

So, anyone can cast cure wounds roughly 3/day. Because the ability to do that lies, say, in getting a blessing from the Goddess of Healing. And anyone who cleanses the abandoned temple of undead could get that ability. Not just "clerics," but anyone who wants to do the Goddess of Healing a solid.

And that's not all. Maybe the same adventure lets you uncover a necromantic ritual that encases you in heavy bone. It's heavy armor. You don't get that because you're a fighter, you get that because you found it in an adventure, and any member of your party can have it.

Maybe the adventure also contains a sacred blade that deals extra radiant damage (it's a radiant sneak attack, and you get it through your quest, not through being a rogue or picking the right subclass).

And a scroll that you could learn the ray of sickness spell from. Anyone can learn it. It's just lying in the big bad's treasure hoard.

And now you have four items for a team of four that covers some common archetypes. But as you go on more adventures, you can mix and match based on what your characters are like. Maybe the one in heavy bone also picks up the ability to infuriate people into an incoherent rage from an adventure featuring the fey, and they're putting together a solid provocation build with a high AC. Maybe whoever casts ray of sickness now picks up a healing ability later.

So it's not Wizards Get Teleport. It's The Party Gets Teleport, and anyone the party thinks makes sense gets to use it. And it's not "justify how this warrior can only use their purely physical ability three times before they're too exhausted," it's "the magical sword lets you do this special move three times and then it can't because it's magic."

You wanna be the purely physical barbarian? Focus on magic that enhances your life force and your big blows. Wanna be Batman? Great, focus on magic that enhances stealth, intimidation, and your ability to tie people up.

And as a DM, you control the subtlety of your world. Want things relatively grounded? You never have to give out the wand that summons angels. You can keep it entirely in "cool bike tricks" land.

And because everyone is playing one class that can use everything, no one will look at the difference and grumble about it being unfair. You can respec between adventures easily. Try out different builds without trying out different characters.

Keep Backgrounds, so someone who wants to be a thief or a warrior still has some grounding and initial equipment in the right area. And, of course, feats and ASI's will affect what build someone might want to do, what items they might want to use.

But one effective way to get people to stop going over class features with a fine tooth comb grousing about power levels is to put the difference in the playing of the game, rather than the building of a character. And then to accept that D&D is (out of the box anyway) about magical people in a magical world doing magical things. Lean into it.

What do you start the game out with? How are you succeeding in those early adventures without getting killed? I'm really curious, this is an interesting new game.

 

[M_Natas]

Sounds like you're a prime candidate for demoting the benighted non-casters to NPC-Class status, like 3e Commoners.

Your martials can't do that in your games?
I slowly see why you guys think that martials suck.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Fair enough, but axes are just not as big a deal as continuous, sourceless flame (or cold, or lightning).

Fire, well, starts fires, and a flint & steel can do that. Tossing lightning around? Basically also going to start fires.
Bu, side from that, what attack cantrips and weapons do is damage, and if you can do 1d8 damage every six seconds, or 1d12 every 3, that going to chew through some stuff....

Cold? Well, that has some potential, you could cool drinks, or construct an ice cave to store beer... now you're talking real culture-affecting knock-on effects...

 

[Tony Vargas]

See my message above, and think about from an in-universe perspective, where the combat rules have are "real". Imagine watching a movie where a wizard is doing this.

I honestly expect the cinematic wizard would get tired faster than the guy swinging the ax ('cause old man, vs lumberjack). And both'd give up pretty quick, because it's just darn boring to watch on screen.