D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

I whole heartedly agree with this. I love appendix N - I love Ashton Clark Smith, Howard, Lovecraft, tolkein, etc etc.

But I don't think people in their late teens or early twenties care or know about those influences/tropes/etc. Even though that's certainly my preference, I think D&D is old enough now that it needs to adapt with the times and connect with contemporary touchstones for new player bases.
Can you name any of those "contemporary touchstones?"

It's one thing to say "adapt with the times and connect with contemporary touchstones for new player bases", but those are empty words if nobody can actually name any of those "contemporary touchstones." I named about a dozen spellcasters largely from recent best sellers earlier & most of those have quite a few best selling books about them, none of them fit the cantrip spamming 5e casters.
 

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Can you name any of those "contemporary touchstones?"

It's one thing to say "adapt with the times and connect with contemporary touchstones for new player bases", but those are empty words if nobody can actually name any of those "contemporary touchstones." I named about a dozen spellcasters largely from recent best sellers earlier & most of those have quite a few best selling books about them, none of them fit the cantrip spamming 5e casters.
Do they fit Vancian memorization?

I mean, most depictions of magical power in fantasy are not systematic, at all. They're whatever the author or director or special F/X studio thought would be good for the themes being explored, or for the story arc or the scene...
 


I'm trying to recall an example from genre that goes into any sort of detail about how magic works, limits to what it can do, drawbacks of using it... and follows through on it when depicting magic...

Aside from Lyndon Hardy's Master of the Five Magics, nothing leaps to mind.
 

I'm trying to recall an example from genre that goes into any sort of detail about how magic works, limits to what it can do, drawbacks of using it... and follows through on it when depicting magic...

Aside from Lyndon Hardy's Master of the Five Magics, nothing leaps to mind.

Yeah, it is pretty rare. I think the reason why Vancian magic got adopted in the first place might be that Vance's books actually did go into detail about it quite a bit.
 


Can you name any of those "contemporary touchstones?"

It's one thing to say "adapt with the times and connect with contemporary touchstones for new player bases", but those are empty words if nobody can actually name any of those "contemporary touchstones." I named about a dozen spellcasters largely from recent best sellers earlier & most of those have quite a few best selling books about them, none of them fit the cantrip spamming 5e casters.
We have been. People are just ignoring it. For maybe the fourth time in the thread…

Look at anime, manga, light novels, and video games. Specifically shonen series. Avatar, Naruto, Demon Slayer, Berserk, Goblin Slayer, Mushoku Tensei, Sword World Online, Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Zelda, One Piece, on and on and on. Those are just the ones I could think of off the top of my head. There are hundreds more, if not a few thousand.
 

It's notorious, really, in itself, it provides very little in terms of meaningful choices. You mostly do what the dice and cards tell you, when you land on a property and can buy it, it's generally best to do so. The most meaningful decisions would be negotiating with other players, which is not governed by the rules. 🤷 ... I'm sure you can google to find much more erudite and ringing condemnations of the world's most commercially successful boardgame, serious TT boardgamers seem to be really down on it. (no funny coincidences there)

(Candyland is the poster child for choiceless game. The dice essentially play the game. That's what makes it so suitable for very young children. Well, that and color matching vs counting)

In competitive games, fairness, which is, really, a lower standard than balance, is a minimum. In comparison to balance, fairness is each player has the same choices as the others (for instance, all could make the same choice, if it clearly the best choice), if imbalanced, some choices would non-viable (experienced players avoid them, they serve only as traps for the unwary) or meaningless (serving only to distract naive players from important choices).

In cooperative games, balance is essential. Each player needs to contribute to success, both for their own enjoyment, and for the collective win. Being dead weight isn't just un-fun, it can result in the collective loss. So choices need to be viable. Further, everyone contributing the same thing in the same way is less interesting than contributing in different ways, so the choices should be meaningful, as well.
It's clearly not essential, as otherwise all cooperative games would be perfectly balanced, and most RPGs aren't even close really.
 

Gygax wrote about why. He was, I kid you not, trying to make sure magic-users would be able to keep up with fighting men.

Game Balance. Game balance is why we got Vancian. 😏

And when they had d4 hit points and no cantrips, and the xp between classes were different ...

... if you squint really hard and stop before you get to high level it... no, squint harder!
 

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