D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Should? Says who? None of the fantasy literature I try to emulate features non-supernatural humans doing reality bending, physics breaking feats.

This conversation goes around and around and around but it's completely settled:

Different people have different base expectations/assumptions about their game world and what is possible. Done. Never the twain shall meet.

(For example, that's implicit in my first sentence: My game world is real world analog + magic.)

For me, it's not so much that the normal human adventurer isn't a thing. It's that high level D&D pairs that with some other expectations/assumptions that I don't really see going together often in fantasy literature and also doesn't have any narrative currency or other ways to bridge the gap.

Magic in fantasy is not often so reliable, versatile, no cost, powerful, and repeatable. Magic has more limits most of the time. Even so, contributing normal humans paired in small parties often have narrative help.

 

[Tonguez]

People keep up bringing up Gandalf for wizards, and he’s an angel. I’m seeing a bit of a double standard.

Yeah I dont think he’s a good example of wizard either, my list originally included Sun Wukong, but I was focussing on Martials and he‘s great example of a Wizard (Bladesinger?), so is Doctor Strange.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

People keep up bringing up Gandalf for wizards, and he’s an angel. I’m seeing a bit of a double standard.

Not sure what the deal with Gandalf is. High level D&D magic is reliable, versatile, no cost, powerful, and plentiful.

Gandalf may be powerful and a bit versatile but his magic wasn't so plentiful, probably because there was some high hidden cost to it. Can't draw attention from the Eye, power waning because it wasn't his "age", etc.

He's another great example of magic having more limits than D&D.

He may be theoretically more powerful than a high level D&D Wizard. But in game terms he would have some kind of huge limiter on his magic.

Maybe he can replicate any D&D spell at will but there is a 10% chance per spell level that world ends or something.

Maybe that explains why he didn't light more enemies on fire like he did that 1 time? Or why he didn't just teleport the fellowship to mount doom

 

[Cadence]

People keep up bringing up Gandalf for wizards, and he’s an angel. I’m seeing a bit of a double standard.

Yeah I dont think he’s a good example of wizard either

I mean, Clarence Odbody (It's a Wonderful Life) and Athanael (Jack Benny in Horn Blows at Midnight) were angels too, so that doesn't automatically make me think super-powerful. And in Middle Earth, some of the Maiar in the world seem less powerful than some of the elves; how many Balrogs did Ecthelion take out?

The disqualifying part to me feels like the sword and the tricks with the pipe. Clearly a bard.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Honestly, this one always bothered me more, since spells in a spellbook is one of the most obviously diegetic class features in the game.

Absolutely. The Wizard can be studying and unlocking these difficult secrets offscreen, but a Fighter building up political power to attract followers in modern D&D must be played out in real time, round by round, person by person including all the random checks and DM fiat involved...

 

[tetrasodium]

Which brings up a whole other long drawn out version of the same discussion. What's appropriate for a source for D&D? Which is already a subthread here. But, like most "discussions" about this kind of thing, people put their goals first so want a curated list of sources that they think are "appropriate" because those sources reinforce their preferences for the game.

There's a whole lot of assumptions you're making in that quote.

The "problematic design" is not just attack cantrips. And it's questionable if that even is problematic design. If martials were boosted to be even roughly on par with casters, cantrips wouldn't matter. If martials are forced to stay lame and casters brought low, then yes, cantrips are problematic. I don't buy that line of reasoning. The best fix, for me, is to buff martials. And to minorly tweak casters. As I said up thread, splitting off non-combat spells into rituals would make balancing what remains simple. Giving everyone access to rituals would then close the majority of the gap between martials and casters.

I flatly refute this, the onus is on you to go beyond a get with the time man type claim. If the elements previously raised (powerful/no cost/ at will/unlimited/self scaling/rapid fire/etc )were not indefensibly problematic then why the need to point & say look over there at so many nonspecific modern/contemporary sources only to eventually bring up a bunch that provide no support or justification for the design?

But, it's worth pointing out that yes, a few of the anime and manga I pointed to do, in fact, have the equivalent to at-will cantrips. The most glaring one is Rudeus from Mushoku Tensei. And though I'm only on the second light novel, I feel confident that a few of his students will get to the point of also having at-will attack cantrips. It's also a great source for boosted martials. Ghislaine, Paul, the Sword Gods, etc. They would all be fantastic templates for proper martials.

As I pointed out previously the last time you mentioned it... Mushoku Tensei literally uses mana. Also there are over 20 books in the series, book two is still pretty much his early puberty & his many kids are not even a consideration at that point. I'm many books ahead of you in the novels...

His mana is not unlimited & Rudeus only appears that way in the extremely peaceful kingdom of Asura because he's a freak for a couple reasons you eventually understand... spoilers: You understand one of the reasons shortly after his quagmire arc when an old face from earlier books (you are a few books from first seeing them) comes back into his life..

Book two is still in the Asura Kingdom learning the basics from Ghislaine with Eris and I don't think he gets his magical mana cost reducing staff till late in the book. Once he gets to the demon continent you even start seeing people overtaxed.

And to that point, I mentioned those anime, manga, etc not as a reference point to show at-will cantrips. That's an assumption you made or a bit of us talking past each other. I've mentioned them in the thread repeatedly as an example of what younger fans see and will likely expect as martial characters to contrast that with the the older fans who are still pointing to Appendix N and refusing to let martials be anything more than a mook with a few extra hit points.

You missed the context of the initial request for examples.

 

[Gammadoodler]

people keep raising Thor and Hulk - the thing is that neither are good models of whats being discussed as Thor is a god with a magic weapon and the Hulk is a monster.
What is being considered is Captain America or Shang Chi or Batman. Maybe Spiderman. On the legendary side you have the likes of Arjuna, Cuchulainn, Samson or Heracles

Any DnD conversion of the Hulk should stat him as a monster not as a High Tier PC, he breaks the rules. Thor could work by stacking most of his powerset (Lightning, Flight) into Mjolnir.

Ennh. MCU Hulk isn't so bad. Lotta jumping and punching. Some occasional ragdolling of certain puny gods.

The building destruction tends to be the thing folks focus on, but how much more durable do we think these buildings are than the giants, devils, and dragons D&D martials would regularly encounter?

Like I'd be inclined to agree that it's a tad much..but not by some crazy amount at high levels.

 

[Aldarc]

To me it is pretty plain that D&D never has tried to emulate actual reality, it emulates fantasy stories and myths. So in real life you cannot train hard enough that you could cut a boulder in twain with a sword, jump on top of the castle wall, lift an ox or slay a fire breathing lizard size of a buss. But in stories you can, so you also can in D&D. Or at least you should.

Yeah, Appendix N doesn't say "just see Reality." It points to the fiction, stories, and narratives that inspired the game, many of which feature larger than life heroic warriors.

 

[Cadence]

Yeah, Appendix N doesn't say "just see Reality." It points to the fiction, stories, and narratives that inspired the game, many of which feature larger than life heroic warriors.

Such as John Carter (and Martian gravity) explaining the default 5e encumbrance rules.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Ennh. MCU Hulk isn't so bad. Lotta jumping and punching. Some occasional ragdolling of certain puny gods.

The building destruction tends to be the thing folks focus on, but how much more durable do we think these buildings are than the giants, devils, and dragons D&D martials would regularly encounter?

Like I'd be inclined to agree that it's a tad much..but not by some crazy amount at high levels.

And we are talking at very high levels here anyway right.

I can understand the argument that EVERY high level martial shouldn't be this kind of hulk, though. But of course, if we are creative and flexible they wouldn't have to be:

1) supernatural physical hulk
2) supernatural dexterity bullet time guy
3) peak human with class built in items. many ways to do this -- crafter, hierloom items, blessed, etc

I'm sure there are others.