D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Cadence]

One assumes they engaged in some kind of training for that (and live in a supernatural world that has such power available), but that doesn't make the human species different from Earth human in that world.

In any case, RPGs generally explain themselves more completely and in detail than film, because the medium allows for it. Look at most any RPG based on a licensed fantasy or science fiction property. They almost always provide more detail than the film or TV show does, because players ask questions, and because RPGs have the time and space required to do so.

So, taking one well known RPG that has had time to explain things...

... insert previous questions on lava
... insert previous questions on a hit in combat
... insert previous questions on encumbrance rules
... insert previous questions on how learning new skills related to killing things

 

[Micah Sweet]

So, taking one well known RPG that has had time to explain things...

... insert previous questions on lava
... insert previous questions on a hit in combat
... insert previous questions on encumbrance rules
... insert previous questions on how learning new skills related to killing things

WotC is bad at this, probably because it doesn't increase shareholder profits, and the TSR design was better (but not as good as it could be).

 

[Gammadoodler]

Adding the force to a setting doesn't make humans as a species like not the ones on earth any more than adding the ability for some people to cast spells does.

Correct. They are similarly indicative that the humans in that setting do not work the same way as they do on Earth.

We can go..
"Sure this crazy fictional ability that has no Earthly precedent exists in humans who regularly rub elbows with all kinds of alien creatures on alien planets in a galaxy far far away...But otherwise they must adhere to earth-baseline performance standards.."

Or we can go..
"Well..it was a long time ago..and it was a galaxy far far away..what the hell do I know about what humans might be capable of there and then"

 

[TwoSix]

One assumes they engaged in some kind of training for that (and live in a supernatural world that has such power available), but that doesn't make the human species different from Earth human in that world.

In any case, RPGs generally explain themselves more completely and in detail than film, because the medium allows for it. Look at most any RPG based on a licensed fantasy or science fiction property. They almost always provide more detail than the film or TV show does, because players ask questions, and because RPGs have the time and space required to do so.

You can’t just “give humans magic”. RLH live in the real universe that doesn’t have supernatural elements.

A setting that is “Like Earth, but magic” is still a fictional simulation, and any residents of that simulation only have the limitations that are explicitly stated by the rules of the simulation.

If “I can read minds” or “I can walk on tree branches” is on the table, then nothing is off the table until explicitly stated to be so. At best, you can use genre assumptions to make guesses.

 

[Raiztt]

A setting that is “Like Earth, but magic” is still a fictional simulation, and any residents of that simulation only have the limitations that are explicitly stated by the rules of the simulation.

Setting aside magic, in what way are D&D humans physiologically different from RLH?

If DnD's genre had 'humans' - everyday no bodies from nowhere - lifting boulders you'd have legs to stand on. But they don't. Then I could say "Well, these look like humans, but the rules of physics and physiology here are obviously very different".

Cards on the table, I think anyone making the argument that D&D's baseline assumption isn't that it's a real world analog, with our physics, they're being completely disingenuous/reaching because they want to make their argument instead of admitting that WotC's world building is absolute dog naughty word.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Correct. They are similarly indicative that the humans in that setting do not work the same way as they do on Earth.

We can go..
"Sure this crazy fictional ability that has no Earthly precedent exists in humans who regularly rub elbows with all kinds of alien creatures on alien planets in a galaxy far far away...But otherwise they must adhere to earth-baseline performance standards.."

Or we can go..
"Well..it was a long time ago..and it was a galaxy far far away..what the hell do I know about what humans might be capable of there and then"

You can make assumptions that suit your agenda, or you can go by what they say and what they don't say.

 

[Cadence]

Well, if the PCs would go take 100 years off in a tower conversing with things beyond in deep study instead of trying to learn new spells by blasting away with cantrips at monsters, they might be able to too.

Regarding "teach this to them", what is the in game story for people very quickly getting better at things they haven't been practicing (new skills, new spells, etc...) -- or have they been practicing blacksmithing (or whatnot) or bringing their labs with them to spell research through the dungeons? Presumably if one could become quickly skilled in a variety of areas by going off and fighting it would have a big impact in how the economy worked (and would make military recruiting a lot easier!!!).

Following up, a VtM game I was in only let us apply XP to things we had explicitly been using either in play or downtime since the last time we got XP. So, not quite like the strict super old school AD&D training, but something.

Would that gate a lot of the less martial things behind needing extra effort to unlock?

While sucking for some of the non-martials, would it address some of the gap? Or would it just mean that regular sabbaticals were add to the adventuring schedule so casters could unlock the new hotness?

Did Gandalf not do high level wizard stuff because he spent all his time pretending he was a ranger, historian and fireworks expert instead of studying more spells? (His claims to know them all perhaps being bluster).

 

[Micah Sweet]

You can’t just “give humans magic”. RLH live in the real universe that doesn’t have supernatural elements.

A setting that is “Like Earth, but magic” is still a fictional simulation, and any residents of that simulation only have the limitations that are explicitly stated by the rules of the simulation.

If “I can read minds” or “I can walk on tree branches” is on the table, then nothing is off the table until explicitly stated to be so. At best, you can use genre assumptions to make guesses.

Hard disagree. If a particular individual has supernatural abilities, I want some kind of explanation. Otherwise, there's no reason in the text to assume humans as a species are different from RLH.

 

[Cadence]

Setting aside magic, in what way are D&D humans physiologically different from RLH?

If DnD's genre had 'humans' - everyday no bodies from nowhere - lifting boulders you'd have legs to stand on. But they don't. Then I could say "Well, these look like humans, but the rules of physics and physiology here are obviously very different".

A 5e child with a four strength can apparently climb and swim with 60 pounds strapped to them just as easily as they could without it, and anything that doesn't kill them will heal overnight in terms of playing with matches or knives.

 

[M_Natas]

You are making that the discussion now.

Previously you were talking about Cap's superserum and Geralt's mutant juice and how those are the explanations for their superpowers. And you said you were looking for examples beyond Saitama for characters who were powerful without that external juice.

And I gave you a list.

And it is silly to use existing game mechanics as a required baseline for proposed game mechanics. It is again self-fulfilling.

..What if fighters could jump 50 feet?
..that would be supernatural
..why?
..because the current book says they can only jump x feet.

And no one is saying there is a need to create a Drax race with a strength of 50.

What I am saying is that we have fictional examples of characters who are, or get superhumanly capable without the need for an external power supply.

There is no reason D&D could not emulate this. We don't need radioactive spiders lurking around every corner waiting to grant superhuman capabilities to the lowly muggles.

It's a fantasy world. Muggles can be fantastic too.

The whole thread is about how to Fix D&D 5e - the Gap between Casters and Martials. Introducing races that outpower all other races is not the solution I would go for.
And of course existing game mechanics are the baseline, unless you wanna create a whole new game from scratch.