D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Minigiant]

It is necessary to reiterate what @payn already said- apparently, no one reads the DMG.

People do read the DMG. It's organized like crap though.

And if your DMG is put together as a rush job, some of the variants that are used to patch the system should have been either core rules or placed front and center to create more uniformity amongst the community.

Because I don't have the problem as a DM. I'm experienced. The problem is as a player. Being a DM of 5e has made me critical as a player. I have the urge to grill the DM on which variant rules they are using. Because as written core 5e like many games has wonky bits that require variants and houserules if they bother you.

I can't blame DMs for not finding these variants because the DMG is organized poorly.

Because if your DMG is disorganized and vague, you can't be shocked that the majority of the fanbase doesn't read it If you put out that kind of DMG, your core rules oughta be more sturdy.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And if your DMG is put together as a rush job, some of the variants that are used to patch the system should have been either core rules or placed front and center to create more uniformity amongst the community.

Because I don't have the problem as a DM. I'm experienced. The problem is as a player. Being a DM of 5e has made me critical as a player. I have the urge to grill the DM on which variant rules they are using. Because as written core 5e like many games has wonky bits that require variants and houserules if they bother you.

Again with "the community"!!!!

Look, you want more uniformity. Without putting too fine a point on it ... 5e is the Burger King Edition.

Have it your way.

The whole point of 5e is that there isn't uniformity. You want to go all ToTM? Great! You want grid! Awesome! You think fudging is okay? Cool! You think fudging is an abomination? Nice! You want to play gritty hobomurder? More power to ya! You want to play happy fun social times in the feywild? Well who doesn't!

And so on. You keep saying that 5e needs to be this one thing. But it isn't. It is, quite explicitly, exactly not what you want it to be. And I will re-use my phrase- that's a feature, and not a bug. 5e isn't prescriptive; it's not going to demand that you play a certain way.


Repeat after me-
5e isn't the Mandalorian, my friend.

5e is BURGER KING.

 

[payn]

Agree. If you like tight, consistent, and integrated math ... it is a great game! As others have alluded, it is similar (not the same ... but similar) to 4e in many ways.

On the other hand, if you like things more loosey-goosey, and enjoy ease-of-homebrew and the ability to quickly adjudicate and/or modify "on the fly" without worrying too much about the math ... it is, IMO, definitely not the game for you.

As I keep stating, not everything works for everyone.

Comparatively to this topic there are a few hidden items about the math in PF2 as well. They have a seemingly organic process of determining character stats during generation. It is a bit of a pit fall, however, in that the game really only supports 2-3 different arrays. So, its a bit forced optimization, but the game is geared where its pretty obvious how to set up a character for success. Any +1 is very valuable and there are very few ways to gain them. Classes are pretty balanced, and martials definitely feel closer to casters.

Pros:

• All classes SAD
• Tight math accurate CR
• Solo fights are challenging
• Feats silo'd for easy character leveling, despite offering many options.
• +x per level makes PCs feel epic much earlier in the level crawl game

Cons:

• Constrained class/multiclass/archetype design
• Tactical play is mandatory
• Weirdly veiled encounter power system with a poor short rest mechanic
• +x per level makes PCs feel like insects against higher level foes

 

[payn]

One would think that after years of trying, one might notice I don't listen to attempts to run me out of the game.

Nor should you be run from the game. As someone who has some quite opposite taste in RPG design, I appreciate learning about your preferences.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Again with "the community"!!!!

Look, you want more uniformity. Without putting too fine a point on it ... 5e is the Burger King Edition.

Are you sure you want to go with Burger King given the percentages in the other thread?

Or are you gonna take the easy way out and argue the point that Enworld posters represent but a fraction of the roleplaying fast-food eating community?

 

[Minigiant]

Look, you want more uniformity

More uniformity or better organization.

And you may think I am making up the community thing but 5e does have a reputation in the vocal parts of the community.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Are you sure you want to go with Burger King given the percentages in the other thread?

I don't know if I want to go with the Burger King.....


but I know better than to cross him.....

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And you may think I am making up the community thing but 5e does have a reputation in the vocal parts of the community.

"The community" is not the same thing as "vocal parts of the community."

Moreover, "vocal parts of the community {that you happen to listen to and partake in}" is not the same thing as what the majority of 5e players want. Repeatedly stating that your preferences are the same as "the community" is ... an interesting choice.

I can't believe Nixon won. I don't know anyone the community who voted for him.

 

[Minigiant]

"The community" is not the same thing as "vocal parts of the community."

Moreover, "vocal parts of the community {that you happen to listen to and partake in}" is not the same thing as what the majority of 5e players want. Repeatedly stating that your preferences are the same as "the community" is ... an interesting choice.

I can't believe Nixon won. I don't know anyone the community who voted for him.

I don't know what the majority of 5e players want except "they don't want a new edition that invalidates their purchases"

No one knows that except WOTC.

But if as you said we know that "No one reads the DMG". But the DMG has solutions. This means the DMG isn't serving the community.

 

[Micah Sweet]

PF2 is a really good game.

It reminded me far too much of 4e (both in format and mechanics) for me to enjoy it. Combine that with a 3.5 player culture and its even worse for me.