D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

Still barking up the realism tree I see… tell you what, when you have removed all magic from the game because it is not realistic, I consider removing giants and dragons too, until then…
Oh, I'm all for unrealistic. My games (if I could ever get another one running....) very much run on rule of cool. Just a lot of this thread ties into realism and applying realism to D&D has unexpected side effects

Given that are several D&D versions and variations that don't assume supernatural exploits on the part of all PCs, I just can't agree with that.
Thing is, D&D as written doesn't really make itself out to be realistic. A high enough level fighter can just take down a grizzly bear bare-handed, which is something a human can just, never do. D&D rules don't out and out say it, but the fighter has to be supernatural as written for that to make sense. Or running off a completely different baseline

D&D just, doesn't attempt to make itself realistic. It pays it the barest amount of lip-service. Trying to force it into realism is going to be naturally messy
 

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Here you are demonstrably wrong. There's a solid core of people who object outright to fighters doing anything particularly exceptional. The fighter is often defined by being unexceptionable in that way, and when that was not the case, argument about that was the tip of the spear in the edition wars.

The fighter is defined by being normal. It is not given them to do things other people can't do. At best they just get to do those things a little better. That's the most archetypal thing about it; as soon as you start using other words for "warrior" you get a more of specific concept that's allowed to do more.
i think you need to consider the words you're picking a little more, this is definitely giving off a tone i'm not entirely sure you intended to present, the fighter should definitely be exceptional, but what alot of people don't want is for them to be is explicitly supernatural, they may be 'normal' in the sense that they don't use arcane magic, blessings from a god or the power of nature to achieve their goals but they can still face down that dragon with nothing but the grit of their teeth, the steel in their hands and a lifetime's worth of combat experience and manage to come out on top.

being able to bend steel bars or to catch and stop a charging monster in it's tracks, jumping across a giant chasm and throwing off status effects through willpower, these aren't things you need magic for, they're all things you can imagine an average person could do if they were just a little bit more exceptional...
 

To me there's a huge thing missing as well; as physically adept characters (everyone really but the physical adepts in particular) level up they should get a faster base movement speed, Monk style. A level 1 fighter should not have the same ground speed (ignoring occasional action surges) as a level 20 fighter. Of course how much extra speed should be given would require D&D to pick a lane which it refuses to do.
personally i think there really ought to be more variance in base movespeed and movement capabilities between classes, both for their initial speed and what they gain as they level up, like, a wizard and a sorcerer might both start with 20ft movement, but while the wizard won't get any additional movespeed the sorcerer might get an additional 5ft or two as they level up(being physically enhanced by magic), a rogue might have 25ft but they have cunning action dash and maybe an ability that lets them shift 5ft when they sneak attack, monk starts with 35ft and just keeps getting additional movement as they level and opportunity attacks have disadvantage against them, fighter has 30ft with a half climbspeed and ignores difficult terrain and gets a couple of 5ft bumps, ranger has 25ft, also ignores difficult terrain and has bumps but has full climb and swimspeeds...
 

I'm also not particular about applying a specific thematic justification for any such exploits, as I believe the players and DM can figure that stuff out if anyone at the table actually needs that level of justification.

Personally, I don't think most folks do or should need that level of justification..

Well, perhaps. But the thing is that some people really want such justification, and it would be super easy to provide one. At least vague "by cultivating their martial spirit the fighters eventually learn to surpass the physical limitations of normal people," or something like that. Just little lampshade for stuff getting crazy at the higher levels and make the idea more palatable for more people.
 

Well, perhaps. But the thing is that some people really want such justification, and it would be super easy to provide one. At least vague "by cultivating their martial spirit the fighters eventually learn to surpass the physical limitations of normal people," or something like that. Just little lampshade for stuff getting crazy at the higher levels and make the idea more palatable for more people.
Sure, I'd be fine with a genrally handwavey explicit signal "With time and experience, they can accomplish superhuman feats" type of statement in the description.

But I think you could also just give them the superhuman abilities and most people would get the idea.
 
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The fighter is defined by being normal. It is not given them to do things other people can't do. At best they just get to do those things a little better. That's the most archetypal thing about it; as soon as you start using other words for "warrior" you get a more of specific concept that's allowed to do more.
I strongly disagree with this, and it raises the question, what is the fighter defined as?

Conceptually, it is extremely broad.

Here’s my definition:
A fighter is an archetype that is good at fighting and:
1. Is not a rogue, ranger, barbarian or monk; and
2. Cannot cast spells.

Even so, if you look at the heroes of history, myth and fiction, there are an enormous amount of them who would qualify as fighters:
  • King Arthur of the Round Table;
  • Odysseus;
  • Teucer the Archer;
  • the Three Musketeers;
  • Cu Culhainn;
  • Most “normal” superheroes including Captain America, Batman, Elektra, Black Widow and Hawkeye;
  • Zorro;
  • Paul Bunyan;
  • John Henry;
  • Suleiman the Magnificent;
  • Alexander Farnese;

So, how would you adjust for the fact that if you wanted to play King Arthur, you would expect to have different class features than Zorro or John Henry?

Well, if you are WotC, you concentrate on the “good at fighting” part, you give them two bonus ASIs, and you call it a day.

This fuels a lot of the strife on these boards. If I want to play Alexander Farnese, I’m not willing to trade my features that make me a leader of men for class features that Cu Culhainn would find appropriate, and vice-versa.

Interestingly, this stands in direct contrast with how wizards were treated.

Wizards are also a broad archetype, encompassing everyone who casts spells who isn’t a cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock or bard. It also accommodates very different characters like enchanters (items), enchanters (mind), elementalists, elementalists focussing on a single element, diviners, necromancers, etc.

But in operationalizing the class, WotC took the exact opposite approach they took with fighters. Instead of saying “we will only include in the base class the stuff everyone agrees on”, they said “we’ll put all the spells in the base class and let the players build their character themself”. Oh, and also, we’ll give them 8 subclasses in the PHB just so everyone knows they’re the favorites.

To me, this also points to the solution for fighters: the class itself needs to be smaller, so the sub-classes can be larger. The sub-classes should better track the archetypes people want to play (and probably should focus on the non-combat aspect of the archetype).

I would also suggest implementing more customization fir fighters. I’ve found that adapting the warlock’s invocation system (as Level Up did) works (though I’ve expanded it in my game).
 
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To me, this also points to the solution for fighters: the class itself needs to be smaller, so the sub-classes can be larger. The sub-classes should better track the archetypes people want to play (and probably should focus on the non-combat aspect of the archetype).

Given the ... length of this thread ... I am sure that this has already been addressed, but I wanted to comment on three separate things.

1. As for why I am replying, I completely agree with this statement. I have previously stated that, to me, the biggest issue with 5e is that too much design is taken up by the class, and too little is left for the sub-class.

If I had a magic wand and could change only two things about the basic design of 5e, this would be one thing I would change. I don't think it would be that difficult to just take out a few extra "class features" at certain levels, and make those available to sub-classes. It would be an easy fix, and would allow a large amount of space for interesting design. In addition, because the designers of 5e appear to never want to add new classes, but also will create sub-classes like they're going out of style, it would make the game better for those who are looking for more variety and/or crunch without disturbing the overall balance or simplicity of the game (for those who like simplicity).

The great thing about this idea is that while it would somewhat disturb full backwards compatibility, it's a relatively minor tweak that opens up a lot of design options.

2. The second thing? Too many spells. This, of course, won't change. But imagine a game where everything wasn't a spell. Where Paladins and Rangers didn't have spells, but had only abilities. Where we reduced the number of half-casters and full casters and three-quarter casters and five-eighths casters, and just had full casters, non-casters, and "third casters" (subclass casters).

3. Finally, the solution to fixing any martial/magic gap isn't to buff martials. It's to beat down casters. Hard. With extreme prejudice. I'm sure that you could hire some martials to do it.
 




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