D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[Dannyalcatraz]

I’ll also point out that few dragon slaying knights in western legends & mythology faced dragons as powerful as the ones in D&D. In a weird sense, a lot of those dragons were much more mundane than D&D’s.

Some were just large, powerful, intelligent but earthbound reptiles, sometimes even lacking a breath weapon. Some did fly and breathe fire (or something else), but not many also cast spells.

One possible explanation for this was once hinted at on a Dragon Magazine (?) cover: in D&D terms, those dragonslayers may have been fighting juveniles.

 

[pemerton]

I’ll also point out that few dragon slaying knights in western legends & mythology faced dragons as powerful as the ones in D&D. In a weird sense, a lot of those dragons were much more mundane than D&D’s.

Some were just large, powerful, intelligent but earthbound reptiles, sometimes even lacking a breath weapon. Some did fly and breathe fire (or something else), but not many also cast spells.

One possible explanation for this was once hinted at on a Dragon Magazine (?) cover: in D&D terms, those dragonslayers may have been fighting juveniles.

Glaurung could mesmerise with a glance. (In D&D, this is a charm or dominate spell.) The dragon Beowulf fought could breathe fire.

I don't think it does the verisimilitude of D&D any good if we insist that the tropes it is ostensibly grounded in are, in the world of D&D, marginal instances of events in that world.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Glaurung could mesmerise with a glance. (In D&D, this is a charm or dominate spell.) The dragon Beowulf fought could breathe fire.

I don't think it does the verisimilitude of D&D any good if we insist that the tropes it is ostensibly grounded in are, in the world of D&D, marginal instances of events in that world.

I didn’t say “all” dragons. There’s certainly dragons in myth and lore every bit as fearsome as the ones in the game.

But a lot of critters called dragons in various European cultures are codified into D&D as wyverns and other large, reptilian creatures- not dragons.

Let’s consider another iconic Draconic solo battle: St George & the Dragon. The dragon was intelligent and is described as “poisoning the countryside.” That could be a lot of things, ranging from a noxious odor, the effects of its waste, a cursed aura, or demonic aura akin to that attributed to witches in some legends.

It demanded tribute of 2 sheep daily, which eventually got increased to a man and a sheep, and finally their children and youths, chosen by lottery.

(Is that a lot? Hard to say. It’s not like there’s a lot of official D&D lore on Draconic metabolisms.)
But the battle is brief: after making the sign of the cross, he defeats the beast with two successful lance blows, then has the rescued princess place her girdle around its neck to lead it around like a leashed dog.

He decapitates the beast before the king in exchange for a promise of religious conversion from the king and his people.

Even for a high-level Paladin- as St. George would probably be modeled on D&D- 2 lance blows are probably NOT going to convince a mature D&D dragon to surrender. And a princess’s girdle seems a small article of clothing to wrap around one’s neck.

As for Beowulf’s dragon, he didn’t actually fight it solo. Wiglaf was instrumental in the battle.

 

[pemerton]

Even for a high-level Paladin- as St. George would probably be modeled on D&D- 2 lance blows are probably NOT going to convince a mature D&D dragon to surrender.

This gets things the wrong way round - it treats the mechanics as fixed and departs from the tropes, rather than telling us what the mechanics should be reflecting.

The same thing applies to were-hyenas, which Conan kills in Queen of the Black Coast with single shots and blows.

A mundane high level fighter should be able to kill with one blow, as these literary and legendary heroes were able to.

 

[CreamCloud0]

This gets things the wrong way round - it treats the mechanics as fixed and departs from the ropes, rather than telling us what the mechanics should be reflecting.

The same thing applies to were-hyenas, which Conan kills in Queen of the Black Coast with single shots and blows.

A mundane high level fighter should be able to kill with one blow, as these literary and legendary heroes were able to.

It wouldn’t even be all that different from a cleric’s destroy undead, ‘any creature of CR(x) or less, or CR(z) that is at less than half health that the fighter successfully hits with an attack is killed instantly’

 

[AnotherGuy]

I wonder how much of a Fighter's problems are in the form of bad Monster design? Monster HP bloat affects many things negatively on the player side.

I'm of the opinion the problem actually flows in the reverse.
The classes are designed first and then the monsters - the issue is with the core mechanics IMO.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I didn’t say “all” dragons. There’s certainly dragons in myth and lore every bit as fearsome as the ones in the game.

But a lot of critters called dragons in various European cultures are codified into D&D as wyverns and other large, reptilian creatures- not dragons.

Let’s consider another iconic Draconic solo battle: St George & the Dragon. The dragon was intelligent and is described as “poisoning the countryside.” That could be a lot of things, ranging from a noxious odor, the effects of its waste, a cursed aura, or demonic aura akin to that attributed to witches in some legends.

It demanded tribute of 2 sheep daily, which eventually got increased to a man and a sheep, and finally their children and youths, chosen by lottery.

(Is that a lot? Hard to say. It’s not like there’s a lot of official D&D lore on Draconic metabolisms.)
But the battle is brief: after making the sign of the cross, he defeats the beast with two successful lance blows, then has the rescued princess place her girdle around its neck to lead it around like a leashed dog.

He decapitates the beast before the king in exchange for a promise of religious conversion from the king and his people.

Even for a high-level Paladin- as St. George would probably be modeled on D&D- 2 lance blows are probably NOT going to convince a mature D&D dragon to surrender. And a princess’s girdle seems a small article of clothing to wrap around one’s neck.

As for Beowulf’s dragon, he didn’t actually fight it solo. Wiglaf was instrumental in the battle.

It wouldn't have been an ancient dragon, but if you accept that a round of attacks on a single target can be flavoured as single, telling blows, a T4 Paladin willing to spend spell slots can deal a lot of damage in two rounds. Particularly if they get some crits.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I'm not a huge fan of that group being able to, if I'm honest.

The Tarrasque is a pretty iconic high-level threat for a party. I'm guessing that you'd be OK with a mixed-class 4-person party defeating it?
What would each member's role be in that confrontation?

Do you feel that parties consisting of all Clerics, all Rogues, or all Wizards should be capable of defeating it?

 

[Fanaelialae]

The Dragon slaying singular Knight is iconic plot armour protected fantasy.

D&D is a different brand of Fantasy, and it should (all imo of course) require additional classes to form a cohesive party to take down such monsters.

It should require a party. It doesn't require that that party include non-"mundane" classes to slay the titanic monsters. D&D has always allowed one or more party members to be fighters and other "mundane" classes. D&D has always allowed for the all fighter party (even if it isn't necessarily the optimal way to play). Heck, in many versions of D&D, there are various Dragon Slayer options for fighters (I think there was a kit in 2e, for example).

D&D has always had (limited) plot armor. They're called hit points. Fall off a mountain and land with at least one hp? You get up, dust yourself off, and walk away. Get bitten and clawed by a beast the size of a (not so small) building, leaving you with at least one hp? You're not impaired in the least. This has always been the way D&D works.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I’ll also point out that few dragon slaying knights in western legends & mythology faced dragons as powerful as the ones in D&D. In a weird sense, a lot of those dragons were much more mundane than D&D’s.

Some were just large, powerful, intelligent but earthbound reptiles, sometimes even lacking a breath weapon. Some did fly and breathe fire (or something else), but not many also cast spells.

One possible explanation for this was once hinted at on a Dragon Magazine (?) cover: in D&D terms, those dragonslayers may have been fighting juveniles.

You've also got a major influence of D&D in Tolkien, wherein a (relatively) mundane man (Bard) slays a gargantuan dragon with a called shot to the heart. I think the most magical thing about Bard was that he knew the language of birds? The black arrow was magical, but there's nothing to suggest that it was an arrow of slaying or anything of the sort, as is often suggested.