Scribe
Legend
And again all imo, it should.
It should require magic, and magic items, for 'normal' people to stand up to mythical beasts. Its part of the point of a mythical, magical, Fantasy, setting.
D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]
- Thread starter Sacrosanct
- Start date
And again all imo, it should.
It should require magic, and magic items, for 'normal' people to stand up to mythical beasts. Its part of the point of a mythical, magical, Fantasy, setting.
Sacrosanct
Legend
Other than every other arrow bouncing off and Bard needing to use that specific arrow? I think it's pretty well inferred it's magical.
"Black arrow! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from of old. If ever you came from the forges of the true king under the Mountain, go now and speed well!""
Sure seems like a classic powerful magical item to me. That description fits with how artifacts in the DMG were described.
I'd bet the vast majority of stories where a hero defeats a dragon or other such powerful monster, there's a magic item or two involved. Which makes sense, because highly crafted weapons like swords back then were cherished items of their own. We've got a lot of mythology around the magical power of uniquely named weapons:
Areadbhar: spear of Lugh
Ascalon: the sword/spear (it's been used for both) of the aforementioned St. George
Clarent: Mordred's sword, cousin to Excalibur
Excalibur: the most famous of them all
Durendal: Roland's sword
Fragarach: Manannán mac Lir and Lugh Lamfada
Gáe Bulga : spear of Cú Chulainn, given to him by Scáthach
Gram: used by Sigurd to slay a dragon
Gungnir: Odin's spear
Hrunting: Beowulf's sword
Joyeuse: The sword of Charlemagne
Lorg Mór: The greatclub of Dagda
Mjölnir: Thor's hammer
Singing Sword of Conaire Mór
Skofnung: The legendary weapon of King Hrólf Kraki
Sword of Freyr
Tyrfing
Fail-Not: Tristan's bow
You get the point. But there are a lot more than this:
Angrvaðall
Armor of Beowulf
Fail-Not
Mistilteinn
Shoes Of Víðarr
Svefnthorn
Ægishjálmur Helm Of Awe
Bradamante’s Lance
Carnennan
Cohuleen Druith
Dyrnwyn
Eldhrímnir
Gunnar’s Atgeir
Hrunting
Jökulsnautr
Lúin of Celtchar
Mimung
Orna
Peter Stumpp’s Magical Belt
Seven Mile Boots
Singing Sword of Conaire Mór
Stone Of Giramphiel
Ascalon
Chariot Of Morgan Mwynfawr
Dáinsleif
Devil’s Green Coat
Egil’ Wings
Girdle Of Brynhildr
Kantele
Levateinn
Excalibur
Olifant
Ragnar’s Shirt
Svalinn
Svíagris
Swan Cloak
Areadbhar
Armor of Örvar-Oddr
Bragi’s Harp
Claíomh Solais
Clarent
Durendal
Fjaðrhamr
Gae Assail
Gobán Saor’s Axe
Hamper Of Gwyddno Garanhir
Lorg Mór
Mantle of Arthur
Pridwen
Sword Of Freyr
Járngreipr
Joyeuse
Megingjörð
Mjölnir
Baugi
Pair Dadeni
Skíðblaðnir
Skofrung
Tarnhelm
Tyrfing
That all said, I think it's clear to see how the original fighter was mundane with their class being augmented by magical items. The early game emulated a lot of the mythology and folklore, and in mythology and folklore, while heroes did great feats of power without the aid of magic, most epic battles with dragons or other similar creatures did have the help of a magical item. And in 1e, the fighter could use the most magic items.
Scribe
Legend
No. I feel the game would be better if there was a requirement or assumption of diversity in the party.
Vaalingrade
Legend
It's also depicted in almost every rendering as tiny and adorable and probably killable by a toddler with a chocolate bar.
I once saw a weird animated thing that showed the 'befouling the countryside' as it literally sowing salt in people's fields, which is a level of petty D&D dragons are sorely lacking.
Vaalingrade
Legend
Sounds like just a quality dwarven-made arrow.
Fanaelialae
Legend
I think you missed something. I said that the black arrow is magical but that I don't think it was an arrow of slaying (or at least there's no evidence to suggest that it was). Smaug was killed by a called shot to the heart. Had Bard opted to shoot Smaug in the big toe, it seems unlikely that the black arrow would have been any more effective than a regular arrow.
This was part of a conversation with @Scribe in which Scribe said they would prefer that "mundane" classes not be able to slay massive creatures like Tarrasques and Ancient Wyrms (I presume, even with the aid of magic weapons, as those were not excluded in the discussion). In response, I pointed out that the dragon slaying knight is a fantasy icon.
@Dannyalcatraz then responded by saying that many dragons from mythology weren't that big. To which I pointed out that Smaug was gargantuan, and was slain by a (relatively) mundane character.
I wasn't saying anything about mundane characters not having magic weapons. Although, I do think that slaying a Tarrasque by stabbing it in the toe multiple times with a +1 sword says a lot about how mundane classes in D&D are at high levels (not very, at least by RW standards).
Scribe
Legend
To clarify. Mundane, without any support. Yes, a party of 4 Fighters with no magic gear or support, should get trampled over.
Smaug may have been killed by a Mundane action, but there was certainly plot armour involved yes?
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
so two mundane high level fighters can slay a dragon, fair enough. and is Wiglaf a Party Member, a Hireling or a Class ability?
I'd be happy for a party of clerics to defeat a Tarasque, especially given the original was defeated by St Martha sprinkling it with holy water.
I wouldnt mind if rogues or wizards were able to trap or banish a Tarasque but wouldnt see them being able to kill it , simply because they are suppose to be 'weaker' in combat. Which is the point of these discussions - Fighters should be better at killing things in combat even things with supernatural resistances to mundane attacks.
The high-level Fighter's problem is not dealing out lots of damage. It's being able to survive, particularly against the massive array of enemies with SFX to attack them with. It's all the other stuff that they simply have no reliable way to do that doesn't relate to combat. And choices with regard to what they're also good at apart from fighting. And it absolutely should be something the character has rather than relying on the GM handing out a magic item they can act as the Legs for.
The first - poor resistance to SFX - could be solved by giving every character or monster a +1 bonus to saving throws for every 2 levels. And while I'm sure there are people who would hate that, and incidentally would make a whole host of special powers that are given to various "boss monsters" so that they aren't easy to defeat with a single spell be less necessary. You don't need legendary resistances or lair actions to prevent magic disabling a supposedly dangerous or legendary enemy if they've got a really good chance of saving against spells thrown at them.
For the rest, there are three obvious ways to improve what fighters and others can do outside combat, Either feats can be selected at higher levels to make the character develop non-combat abilities appropriate for a high-level character ("I can swim around Gotland or down to the bottom of a lake while fighting monsters without drowning," says Beowulf). Or you do something similar with skills, perhaps letting proficiency bonus not be simply another +1 at various levels but rather "unlocking" the more epic abilities where you can survive 100 days without food and water (probably more a Monk ability, asceticism being their thing) or persuading an entire army to follow you. Or it's simply a high-level class ability such as high-level personal followers.
The first - poor resistance to SFX - could be solved by giving every character or monster a +1 bonus to saving throws for every 2 levels. And while I'm sure there are people who would hate that, and incidentally would make a whole host of special powers that are given to various "boss monsters" so that they aren't easy to defeat with a single spell be less necessary. You don't need legendary resistances or lair actions to prevent magic disabling a supposedly dangerous or legendary enemy if they've got a really good chance of saving against spells thrown at them.
For the rest, there are three obvious ways to improve what fighters and others can do outside combat, Either feats can be selected at higher levels to make the character develop non-combat abilities appropriate for a high-level character ("I can swim around Gotland or down to the bottom of a lake while fighting monsters without drowning," says Beowulf). Or you do something similar with skills, perhaps letting proficiency bonus not be simply another +1 at various levels but rather "unlocking" the more epic abilities where you can survive 100 days without food and water (probably more a Monk ability, asceticism being their thing) or persuading an entire army to follow you. Or it's simply a high-level class ability such as high-level personal followers.
Last edited:
Sacrosanct
Legend
That's never missed and is always returned? Seems pretty magical to me.
Similar Threads
