D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[Micah Sweet]

The game state at the table is how the players experience that world, tho.

No, the descriptions of the DM and the actions of the PCs in response is how the players (through their PCs) experience the world. Anything else is not something I want in D&D.

 

[Tony Vargas]

No, the descriptions of the DM and the actions of the PCs in response is how the players (through their PCs) experience the world. Anything else is not something I want in D&D.

That's just, like, jettisoning the actual game. Not that you can't play that way, just as a freestyle shared-imagination exercise with no rules... just...
...that can't be what you mean. What am I missing?

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's just, like, jettisoning the actual game. Not that you can't play that way, just as a freestyle shared-imagination exercise with no rules... just...
...that can't be what you mean. What am I missing?

4e minion rules lack consistency, because the creatures change their mechanical expression based not on what they are, but on who they are fighting at the moment. I don't ever want to play that way.

 

[Oofta]

My point is that good mechanics, in a mainstream level-based fantasy RPG like D&D, will enable a high level fighter to emulate Conan's feats. And Conan is able to "one shot" were-hyenas.

You make a infinitely long jump from hyenas with glowing red eyes to were-hyenas. They are different mediums, things in fiction don't have to adhere to any systematic rules, it's impossible that they were modeled on anything D&D related since Gygax was either a twinkle in his dad's eyes or likely a small child when the Conan books were first written.

I could set up a scenario that would work much like this with a high level fighter or barbarian. The animals just aren't going to be were-hyenas.

 

[Tony Vargas]

4e minion rules lack consistency, because the creatures change their mechanical expression based not on what they are, but on who they are fighting at the moment.

That's not so much lacking consistency, as it is having functionality. Like, consider the Conan vs Hyena-dudes thing. Conan rips through them. In 4e, "oh, they're minions." In every other edition, it sparks an irresolvable debate about whether they're 'were' or demonic or whatever and how many HD that means they 'should' have and what level Conan would 'need' to be.

But, what did that have to do with this:

No, the descriptions of the DM and the actions of the PCs in response is how the players (through their PCs) experience the world.

That sounds like the game has nothing to do with it? That's what's perplexing me. Doesn't the game have a critical role(npi) to play in the players' experience of the DMs imagined world through their PCs?

 

[Campbell]

Like this:

More seriously I think it looks like the Pathfinder 2e fighter (outside of some skill feats that cross the line). Resilient physically and mentally. A hell of an athlete. Best at what it does. No limited resources. Unmatched in one and one physical combat. Pretty good at protecting others.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's not so much lacking consistency, as it is having functionality. Like, consider the Conan vs Hyena-dudes thing. Conan rips through them. In 4e, "oh, they're minions." In every other edition, it sparks an irresolvable debate about whether they're 'were' or demonic or whatever and how many HD that means they 'should' have and what level Conan would 'need' to be.

But, what did that have to do with this:

That sounds like the game has nothing to do with it? That's what's perplexing me. Doesn't the game have a critical role(npi) to play in the players' experience of the DMs imagined world through their PCs?

Ideally IMO the mechanics of the game should follow the fiction of the setting as closely as possible, so you don't have to think about the two separately all that much.

And I would rather have the hyena debate than use 4e minions.

 

[Quickleaf]

4e minion rules lack consistency, because the creatures change their mechanical expression based not on what they are, but on who they are fighting at the moment. I don't ever want to play that way.

I think I understand.

Am I correct in thinking you find 5e Legendary Actions (which can be used only at the end of another creature's turn) similarly objectionable, because the rules language thus prevents the legendary monster from using a Legendary Action such as a wing attack unless it is in initiative combat with other creatures?

For example, an adult red dragon couldn't use a wing attack to break through a bunch of building scaffolding as it moves through a city, going by a strict reading of the rules.

 

[Pedantic]

I think I understand.

Am I correct in thinking you find 5e Legendary Actions (which can be used only at the end of another creature's turn) similarly objectionable, because the rules language thus prevents the legendary monster from using a Legendary Action such as a wing attack unless it is in initiative combat with other creatures?

For example, an adult red dragon couldn't use a wing attack to break through a bunch of building scaffolding as it moves through a city, going by a strict reading of the rules.

Oh for sure. Lair actions are even worse, but that's so clearly a lost cause.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In this instance we're talking about a dash action, typically 30 feet worth of movement for a PC. That's 10 yards. 1/4 of the 40-yard distance Offensive Linemen (!) in the NFL run in 5 seconds.

Sure, in a straight line, but 5 seconds to cover 4 times the distance (and they cover those first 10 yards in 2 seconds or less)

Honestly, it wouldn't even be that hard to proof of concept. Imagine Jerome Bettis with a greatsword on an inside run play, blade first.

Like, we're totally in 'a difference of taste' territory here, but I don't think some of these things are as far from normal human capabilities as you are suggesting.

To be clear, there’s a huge difference between a lunge by a RW highly skilled swordsman making a couple of attack lunges and being able to attack everyone in a 706 square foot area (a 15’ radius circle) in 6 seconds. That’s almost 50% bigger than my entire apartment in law school, and about 80% bigger than the house I was brought to the day I was born. That doesn’t sound mundane to me.

I’m a LOT more comfortable with a 10’ radius area (approximately 315’ square feet).

Edit: and this is assenting that human capabilities are an appropriate baseline when most of the races in the game aren't even human.

I have been noting through several posts that what is mundane may differ based on species abilities.

Spelling it out and going back to my first post’s methodology of being system agnostic:

If a character’s base speed is based on his species (not class), then a high level mundane fighter’s speed might max out at 2 times* normal for his species. (The 3.X monks did something like this by simply adding 10’ base speed every few levels.)

That “heroic max” could be applied to a variety of metrics & mechanics.

If a normal human hold their breath for a number of rounds = 2x their Con bonus (or whatever), the high-level mundane warrior could hold their breath for 4x their Con bonus. But a high-level mundane warrior of a species that could already do 4x would be able to hold their breath 8x their Con.

See also things like max encumbrance, bonuses to saves regarding endurance, bonuses to resisting harmful magic, and so on.



* or maybe even 3 or 4 times. The exact number doesn’t really matter for this discussion, and if used, would need to be determined by playtesting.