D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[Micah Sweet]

I think I understand.

Am I correct in thinking you find 5e Legendary Actions (which can be used only at the end of another creature's turn) similarly objectionable, because the rules language thus prevents the legendary monster from using a Legendary Action such as a wing attack unless it is in initiative combat with other creatures?

For example, an adult red dragon couldn't use a wing attack to break through a bunch of building scaffolding as it moves through a city, going by a strict reading of the rules.

I suppose so, so I would simply have those be abilities the creature possesses that they can use out of combat as they see fit.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Duplicate post

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Huh? In REH's stories, if I want a soldier killed dead right quick I call on another soldier, not a sorcerer.

How does it strengthen the verisimilitude of D&D that, in many of its iterations, the opposite is true?

D&D has always done a poor job of simulating wspellcasters a la REH. See Fireball, Meteor Swarm, Lightning Bolt, Shapechange, etc.

As noted in countless threads, D&D is best at simulating D&D, not any myth tradition or particular work of fiction.

And what do tanks vs infantry soldiers even have to do with this at all? In this context, those are concepts from wargame design (eg Chainmail), not concepts from verisimilitudinous fantasy fiction.

“Tanks vs infantry” (sort of) describes combat roles of “linear fighters vs quadratic wizards”.

Tanks are great at laying waste to large areas, but can be vulnerable to well-trained & equipped infantry. Infantry without armor support can be destroyed from a distance if identified at range. Using mixed forces- armored & infantry- allows each to shore up and defend the weaknesses of the other.

(See also a carrier strike group.)

BUT, over time, spell casters’ weaknesses have been patched by giving them more spells, more slots, and generally making their weaknesses easier to overcome without assistance from other party members.

In a campaign that started in 1Ed and continued into 3Ed over a couple decades, the party’s Wizard went from being a glass cannon to (potentially) being nearly untouchable.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If were-hyenas count as "mooks" - as opposed to "more powerful foes" - then I don't understand what the qualifications in your post are referring to.

“Mooks” aren’t just low level humanoid sidekicks to BBEGs. They’re any kind of minions that are dangerous if not taken seriously, but can be defeated with relative ease. To a high level warrior, a pack of mundane hyenas could very well be described as “mooks”.

“More powerful foes” might be something like a group of ogre-mages. A hydra. Creatures immune to damage from weapons that aren’t magical or made from a certain substance. Etc.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Since we're talking about taking out tons of dudes;
Is taking out 100 bad guys in a minute and thirty seconds mundane???

 

[Minigiant]

“Mooks” aren’t just low level humanoid sidekicks to BBEGs. They’re any kind of minions that are dangerous if not taken seriously, but can be defeated with relative ease. To a high level warrior, a pack of mundane hyenas could very well be described as “mooks”.

“More powerful foes” might be something like a group of ogre-mages. A hydra. Creatures immune to damage from weapons that aren’t magical or made from a certain substance. Etc.

Exactly.

"Higher level monsters sic higher level mooks on higher level fighters"

That's the fantasy.

The Bandit captain sics Bandits on the Town Guard veteran.
The Orc War Chief sics Orcs on the Ranger Captain.
The Vampire sics Vampire Spawn on the Vampire Hunter.
The Pit Fiend summons Bearded Devils on the Hero of the World.

And the high level fighter cleaves through all these mooks to get to the BBEG. Blade dusts vampires left an right to get to the head vampire. The war movie hero slashes through the trained soldiers to get to the enemy lord.

That's the fantasy. That's why 4e created the exceptionist rules for minions. Because that fantasy was expected.

5e does not handle that but it is some a high level fighter should be able to do.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, no, a minion is a thing that exists in the fictional world - a threat to the PCs, who also exist in that world, that they can dispatch fairly easily. The exact same monster, in another context, could be modeled differently. If it's fighting much lower level PCs, it could be an elite or even a solo, able to pull combat tricks against them that the higher level PCs would've shrugged off without a thought. If it's fighting some other monsters in the background, it doesn't need stats, at all.

And I hate that. That the game has to do this is an admission that the combat system has failed. A proper combat system should be able to produce this effect without changing the monster stats, but simply having the stats of the monsters and the stats of the levelling PCs calibrated so that the relative power difference will emerge.

I fully get the criticism that 5e doesn't do this perfectly either. That's fair, it could be better. I still prefer this over the ugly kludge of 4es varying monster stats.

Whether you think of it as a story with the PCs as protagonists, a game with the PCs as pieces controlled by the players, or a world that the players experience through the PCs - relative to the PCs is the only way anything exists, at all.

I want the game world that seems to have an objective existence and I want rules that reflect that.

 

[CreamCloud0]

what truly is a minon if not the monster's equivilant of a levelless commoner?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Exactly.

"Higher level monsters sic higher level mooks on higher level fighters"

That's the fantasy.

The Bandit captain sics Bandits on the Town Guard veteran.
The Orc War Chief sics Orcs on the Ranger Captain.
The Vampire sics Vampire Spawn on the Vampire Hunter.
The Pit Fiend summons Bearded Devils on the Hero of the World.

And the high level fighter cleaves through all these mooks to get to the BBEG. Blade dusts vampires left an right to get to the head vampire. The war movie hero slashes through the trained soldiers to get to the enemy lord.

That's the fantasy. That's why 4e created the exceptionist rules for minions. Because that fantasy was expected.

5e does not handle that but it is some a high level fighter should be able to do.

Thing is, this roughly works, the DPS of the fighter just isn't as high you'd want. But A high level fighter will dispatch bearded devils with roughly the similar ease than a low level one deals with bandits. It just isn't slaying hordes of them every turn and will often require several hits, but that's why higher level fighters have many attacks.

What you want would require seriously recalibrating the whole power dynamic of the game, making characters deal significantly more damage.

But those wo are satisfied with minion rules to handle this, there literally is nothing stopping you from doing this in 5e. It is fully within GM's rights to give the enemies whatever amount of HP they want. Though this would actually boost casters with AOE spells, not fighters. I'd recommend using cleave rules from DMG alongside with this to get it work better with martials.

 

[Minigiant]

Thing is, this roughly works, the DPS of the fighter just isn't as high you'd want. But A high level fighter will dispatch bearded devils with roughly the similar ease than a low level one deals with bandits. It just isn't slaying hordes of them every turn and will often require several hits, but that's why higher level fighters have many attacks.

What you want would require seriously recalibrating the whole power dynamic of the game, making characters deal significantly more damage.

But those wo are satisfied with minion rules to handle this, there literally is nothing stopping you from doing this in 5e. It is fully within GM's rights to give the enemies whatever amount of HP they want. Though this would actually boost casters with AOE spells, not fighters. I'd recommend using cleave rules from DMG alongside with this to get it work better with martials.

Nah. I've constantly said to low monster HP is preferable not raise fighter damage.

But the community doesn't want major changes as they don't want to learn new rules or adjust old content. So increasing fighter/barbarian/ranger damage is the only option "allowed".

But my preference from jump is to

1. lower monster HP. Either remove CON mod bonus to HP (Vampire Spawn goes from 82 to 49) or roll monster HD as 1s (Vampire Spawn goes from 82 to 33).
2. Assumption of using magic items and feats at all table.

It's all about the fantasy. D&D should fulfill the fantasy. Especially since newcomers will come expecting that fantasy from other media which inspired their fighter PCs. And there are ways to do it with overwhelming new players.

Do something. Do anything. But the "5e fighters can't cleave through enemies so it okay" is just cope. It ain't right and excuses are being made.