D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[Micah Sweet]

That Conan is more powerful than a were-hyena is a thing in the world. One way to model it, in a D&D-esque RPG, is to stat up the were-hyena a minion when confronting Conan. The minion-status of the were-hyena (a mechanical state of affairs) represents the difference in power (a fictional state of affairs).

That is one way to stat it up, if you have the agenda to have your hero churn through enemies quickly. I would prefer a different way personally.

 

[pemerton]

In that story, Conan is one-shotting low level monsters that can be taken down with an unarmed strike. Maybe more along the lines of gnolls rather than D&D were-creatures.

This assertion is question-begging.

I don't think a D&D Fighter should be one-shotting a crowd of werewolves.

Because?

What else should a high-level fighter be doing, if not cutting their way through a crowd of werewolves (or ogres, or velociraptors, or whatever).

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If something in real life is assigned a statistical value using the metric system and then later using the imperial system, do the observable qualities that someone materially interacts with to build out their internal model suddenly change? No.

No.

(Only the ease of making sense of things, for which metric is obviously far superior.)

Same thing goes for climbing. There are multiple grading systems used around the world, but whether someone uses one or another doesn't change the properties of the climb itself. The grading systems are just a shorthand interface for the climbing community to reference (which indexes difficulty, expected types of holds/distances between/traverses/techniques to be employed/angles of pitch etc).

However, what does change is reference points (just like in martial arts) as someone increases in capability. If someone rises to become an Intermediate climber (someone who comfortably climbs V4s and tops out at V6s in the V-scale) a V2 is going to be a trivial problem to surmount relative to a Beginner climber. Same goes for a high-end Advanced climber who will now look at V4s and V5s much like the Intermediate climber looks at V1, V2s, and some 3s; trivial to surmount.

The features of the climb to surmount don't objectively change in a material since when interacted with whether you're using the V-scale or the Font scale (where a V6 might be a 7a). What does change are the reference points to the obstacles as climbers increase or decrease in various aspects of climbing facility.

These reference points as facility increases/decreases are what generates "mook-gating" whether it be AD&D or D&D 4e (where both systems reference an assigned statistical value of one thing - HD of HP value of monsters - against an assigned statistical quality of another thing - Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/hero or adventurer status).

Climbing is neither more nor less immersive because of the diversity of grade-scaling as a reference point and that diversity of grade-scaling doesn't decrease a user's ability to build out a working mental model of a route/obstacle and their prospective ability to surmount it (both before a prospective climb and during it).

This to me seems confused. I really don't see that as analogous to the minion system. We already have ways to measure qualities of creatures: their stats. Introducing a parallel system that measures their quality vis-à-vis an external comparison (the characters) by changing their stats is just bizarre. Nothing of the sort certainly is going on with switching from metric to imperial, or in your lengthy climbing example (which BTW is not particularly useful comparison to people who are completely clueless about climbing, i.e. me and almost everybody else.)

 

[pemerton]

It is based on whims of the GM, not anything that actually exists in the fictional world.

This makes no sense. Everything in the fictional world is authored by "the whims of the GM".

It is representing role in the story, not a feature in the world. .

The feature of the world is that the PCs are powerful relative to the NPCs/creatures. And the GM then represents that, using a mechanical device.

Having the GM to case by case decide whether apply this kludge of using a different statblock fo the same creature is just massively awkward and inelegant design. If you want creatures to be relatively weak compared to the mighty heroes, just design the basic statblocks of each so that this happens.

I found it extremely elegant, not the least bit "kludgey", and it produced the desired fiction far more reliably than any version of D&D I know of that uses your preferred approach.

 

[pemerton]

4e minion rules lack consistency, because the creatures change their mechanical expression based not on what they are, but on who they are fighting at the moment. I don't ever want to play that way.

The fact that the mechanical expression is relative doesn't mean its inconsistent.

You may as well assert that it's inconsistent to describe an elephant as big (for an animal) because it is small (when compared to the typical celestial body).

As Bertrand Russel and GE Moore proved around 125 years ago, relations are real things in the world (contra Bradley and Hegel).

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And he comes a decision of what's more important

Statistical consistency
OR
Fantasy satisfaction

This of course assumes that most people are not already satisfied with the fantasy the current fighter rules provide. Which still, as we know, is just your opinion, not a fact.

With the high level fighter one of the biggest obstacles with it is that a lot of the fandom will not allow for the fantasy satisfaction to overcome statistical consistency.

The high level fighter should be able to one shot an ogre. But it would require exception-based rules. And for some people they do not want to inject these exception rules as base rules. Only as optional rules that the DM adds based on their own preferences, if they add it at all.

It doesn't though. It requires the fighter to able to do sixty points of damage with one hit. A rule that allows them to do this is certainly easy enough to write. It just is a question of whether that would be balanced and would it be good for the game.

I would probably start by allowing fighters to forgo their multiple attacks to do one powerful attack instead. If required a condition such as advantage to do, or consumed some limited resource, it could be even more powerful.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This makes no sense. Everything in the fictional world is authored by "the whims of the GM".

The feature of the world is that the PCs are powerful relative to the NPCs/creatures. And the GM then represents that, using a mechanical device.

I found it extremely elegant, not the least bit "kludgey", and it produced the desired fiction far more reliably than any version of D&D I know of that uses your preferred approach.

But once a setting fact is established, it remains such for everyone (including the DM) until it is changed diagetically.

 

[pemerton]

You make a infinitely long jump from hyenas with glowing red eyes to were-hyenas.

They're were-hyenas because, in the story, they start as people and get turned into hyenas!

Here is the relevant passage:

Exhausted they lay down among the ruins where red blossoms that bloom but once in a century waved in the full moon, and sleep fell upon them. And as they slept, a hideous shape crept red-eyed from the shadows and performed weird and awful rites about and above each sleeper. The moon hung in the shadowy sky, painting the jungle red and black; above the sleepers glimmered the crimson blossoms, like splashes of blood. Then the moon went down and the eyes of the necromancer were red jewels set in the ebony of night.

When dawn spread its white veil over the river, there were no men to be seen: only a hairy winged horror that squatted in the center of a ring of fifty great spotted hyenas that pointed quivering muzzles to the ghastly sky and howled like souls in hell.​

Why are you (and other posters) correcting me on a story that you apparently haven't even read?

 

[Minigiant]

Lower the werehyenas hit points

OR

Increase the fighters damage

OR

Add a rule that subverts the base rules (a minion rule, a massive damage rule)

Pick one. I'm fine with any of them. I'm not fine with keeping what does not match the fantasy.

 

[Gammadoodler]

you could give them names, backgrounds, interior lives, personal relationships, etc...
It's just, like, depending on the PCs, they're only going to be around for the few rounds it takes the party to cut them down or blow them up - so is it worth the effort?

Depends on how you like to treat looting.

You find a collection of folded parchment covered in crude charcoal scribblings. Each sheet is smudged and worn with clear crease marks criss-crossing the center of the page, artifacts from time spent folded inside one jacket pocket or another across many long journeys. The innermost sheet, more worn than the rest, and peppered with numerous, faint sooty and occasionally bloodstained fingerprints, depicts a small house with a large tree in front of it, two small figures playing with a ball, one larger figure, and what appears to be an out of scale cat or maybe fox randomly next to the tree. At the bottom of the page in a finer hand than the rest of the drawing, "We love you. Come home safe. We'll be waiting."

You also find..a bag of ball bearings, studded leather armor, a shortsword, three days' rations, a recently-purchased stuffed animal, and a mostly empty flask.