D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[Crimson Longinus]

What is the difference between the goblins in the first post, and the ogre in the second post?

Goblin is a small creature that is not very resilient, ogre is a massive creature that is pretty tough. Their rules reflect this reality.

Statting up creatures or NPCs has consequences for what will happen, in the fiction, when the players declare actions for their PCs that relate to those creatures or NPCs. If we give the 5e goblins 7 hp, it becomes true that high level fighter who hit them will kill them. If we make the 4e ogre a minion, because the PCs it is fighting are high level, it becomes true that if one of those PCs hits it, it will die. I don't see how one of these is "presecribing narrative" but the other is not.

Because reason for goblins having seven hit points is not that that fighters can kill them easily. They have seven hit points because they're pretty small and weak creatures, and as result fighters can kill them easily.

As to whether or not the PCs fight or befriend a goblin or an ogre, this has nothing to do with whether or not it has 7 or 1 or 100 hp.

It might not. But actions of the players might cause the ogre to fight different foes at different times. Maybe PCs now, Maybe PCs later, maybe the enemies of the PCs now, maybe the enemies of the PCs later, maybe alone, maybe as a part of a larger force. I don't wan the stats of the ogre to change depending on circumstances.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

No, you are drawing invalid parallels from other non-D&D universes that don't follow D&D rules.

We are talking about D&D with D&D rules, not a comic book. (A Velociraptor is 10 hp. A Deinonychus is 26 hp. An Allosaurus is 51 hp.)

We are not talking about a Fighter surviving a long, drawn-out fight against a crowd. We are talking about one-shotting D&D monsters with decent hit points. Werewolves and Ogres are 58 and 59 hp each, respectively. Using your Conan example, you appear to be saying that a high-level fighter should be dealing 60 damage with each unarmed strike, and should be taking out a dozen werewolves, ogres, or allosauruses in only 3 rounds. How about a dozen hill giants? Wyverns? Where is your HP limit on one-shot kills?

My apologies @pemerton. I'm totally coming at this from a 5E perspective. You of course can enjoy 4E or other games where the design allows for one-shotting traditionally scary monsters. Your preferences are valid.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Okay, but I do because I'm trying to tell a narrative.


Not to me. The ogre is an obstacle for the main characters of the story. He will die. The purpose he will die for is up to me by deciding which stat block he has. The means of his demise is up to the players be that sword, or bow or eighty years later after an overdose of Gramma Moonbeam's Spiced Apple Pie if the players decide to save him from the fate he was created for.

Yes, we have different objectives, thus we disagree on what sort of rules are the best.

So here's the thing:

Why does the ogre have stats?

Is it because he's an element of the game that needs to reference those stats, or is it to somehow simulate an actual creature for no specific purpose and it doesn't matter if those stats are at loggerheads with its place in the game?

It is to simulate the creature in case the rules are needed, but not with specific predecided purpose. What the purpose of the ogre is in the game will organically emerge during the play.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I don't understand what this means. Also goblins have seven hit points, so characters that are in tarrasque fighting business will reliably oneshot them.

I believe the intent here is to suggest that the encounter includes 4d6 quantity of goblins.

So 14 goblins, which, at most, the fighter could attack around half of them on a turn assuming they are conveniently spaced.

At 7 hp a pop (CR 1/4 goblin), max modifier+basically any static damage bonus means any hit would indeed kill the goblins.

It does mean that the fighter is wasting a ton of damage on overkilling some goblins that could be going into the tarrasque (This is neither here nor there, as the same would be true of minion).

But here's the thing. That 7 hp goblin was pretty one-shottable at level 1. A +3 modifier + dueling fighting style means it only survived with a 1 on the damage roll 19 levels ago.

So let's look at the advancement from level 1 to level 20. At level 1, just starting out, a fighter can likely kill 1 goblins (assuming hits a hit). At level 20, at the pinnacle of their adventuring career, with an action surge, they can certainly kill (on hit) an incremental 7 more more goblins at level 20 on a turn that they could not kill at level 1.

That works out to..1 additional CR 1/4 creature a fighter can take out a turn (with action surge)..every 2.5 levels.

Is the heroic journey people should expect for their fighters, from being able to kill 1 goblin when they're first starting out to being able to kill 8 goblins at peak 'heroes of the realm' physical prowess?

Goblins are probably a bad example for this exercise as they actually are one-shottable. What is the highest CR creature a fighter can reliably one shot at level 20 that they couldn't one-shot at level 1.

 

[pemerton]

No, you are drawing invalid parallels from other non-D&D universes that don't follow D&D rules.

I don't believe in "D&D universes". D&D expressly purports to present fantasy in the vein of classic fantasy stories - REH's Conan is expressly referenced, and so is JRRT's LotR.

I am looking to these sources to answer the OP's question. A mundane high level fighter looks like Conan; or like Aragorn and Eomer, who met on the field of battle although the hosts of Mordor stood between them. Or even like Eowyn, who decapitates with one swift stroke the fell beast that the Witch King is riding on.

We are talking about D&D with D&D rules, not a comic book.

I'm not talking about comic books. I'm talking about the fantasy stories that the game is (ostensibly) inspired by.

We are not talking about a Fighter surviving a long, drawn-out fight against a crowd. We are talking about one-shotting D&D monsters with decent hit points. Werewolves and Ogres are 58 and 59 hp each, respectively. Using your Conan example, you appear to be saying that a high-level fighter should be dealing 60 damage with each unarmed strike, and should be taking out a dozen werewolves, ogres, or allosauruses in only 3 rounds. How about a dozen hill giants? Wyverns? Where is your HP limit on one-shot kills?

The allocation of hit points is not dictated in heaven. It's a design decision. So is everything else about the game's combat system.

In D&D, the wyvern is a close approximation to the Witch King's fell beast (the dragonnel, in AD&D MM2, is closer). As I already noted, Eowyn decapitates it in one blow. I've posted the passage in which Conan kills all the were-hyenas.

This is what high level mundane fighters look like. I leave it to others to debate how this might be implemented in 5e D&D - @Minigiant and @Quickleaf seem to have some ideas.

 

[Vaalingrade]

What the purpose of the ogre is in the game will organically emerge during the play.

What if his purpose it to job to the players as part of a fight where he's one of a dozen goons for someone cooler but his stats or god help us, the dice prevent said jobbing and he just sticks around on stage for damn ever wasting combat time?

I've been in that game where some trash mobs just hung around because the players kept rolling minimum damage.

 

[Vaalingrade]

How about a dozen hill giants? Wyverns? Where is your HP limit on one-shot kills?

1 because I make them minions if they're supposed to die quick.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

But you seem to think the demigod with the blacksmith buddy is a big problem for 4e!

It might not be exactly a pressing problem, but also isn't an issue 5e has. And yes, I think it still is far more relevant than peasant railgun. People actually sometimes play characters of differing levels or have allies of differing power. Critical Role campaign one famously had a guest character* that was about ten levels lower than the main party to join them for several sessions and land a killing blow on a dragon. Objective stats do not have issue with any of this, relative ones do.

(* The character actually was a blacksmith!)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I've been in that game where some trash mobs just hung around because the players kept rolling minimum damage.

Yeah, me too! Last time that happened characters intimidated that last goblin that refused to die to make a truce and gained some valuable information from him. I think he's a chief of a goblin tribe somewhere now. Awesome stuff!

 

[W'rkncacnter]

here's an idea - 5e has tiers, right? what if fighters (and possibly other martials) could deal additional damage and get an expanded crit range against creatures of lower tiers? so maybe a fighter's crit range expands by however many tiers lower the target of their attack is compared to them, and their damage is multiplied by a number one higher then that.

if we do that, and then go back to that level 15 (i.e. tier 3) fighter vs. the cr 2 (i.e. tier 1) ogre from way earlier, then our fighter is dealing triple damage against that ogre with a crit range that's 10% larger. if we let massive damage be a core rule instead of variant (at least for lower level NPCs), our fighter can pretty reliably kill an ogre in a single attack now, we didn't have to change any statblocks, AND fighting higher level enemies is unaffected. we also don't run the risk of unexpected interactions resulting from the removal of a damage roll entirely, like the instant kill idea might.

the only problem i can see is it doesn't really play nice with the optional cleaving rule (since you might cleave into a creature who wouldn't be crit by that attack roll but WOULD be hit, and/or that would have a different damage modifier applied), but that's an optional rule anyways and it'd probably be more productive to just introduce a whirlwind attack anyway (or, more accurately, let characters who aren't hunter rangers pick it up).

we could also just say fighters (and possibly other martials) one-shot creatures two tiers or more lower then them. but i like the idea of throwing out big damage numbers on lower level monsters.

Goblins are probably a bad example for this exercise as they actually are one-shottable. What is the highest CR creature a fighter can reliably one shot at level 20?

i assume by reliably one shot we mean "can kill with average damage on a hit"? assuming no magic items, technically CR 2 (only because young wereravens are CR 2 despite having 7 hp for some bizarre reason). with magic items? about CR 3 (the most average damage i could juice out of a single attack with 20 strength and a +3 magic weapon was 26 damage with a holy avenger greatsword, and a few CR 3s - two reduced-threat monsters and a warlock of uk'otoa - sit at around 20ish hit points).

you could probably juice out a bit more damage on a single attack by singling out a specific fighter subclass, but i don't think it'd be enough to breach up to a higher CR. also, if by "reliably one shot" you mean "with minimum damage", i think we fall back to CR 2 no matter what (again, solely that high due to the young wereravens).