D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[Oofta]

3 attacks (4th is capstone and i'm assuming we DON'T mean max level necessarily) with a holy avenger greatsword against an ogre will deal about 76 damage a turn assuming no expanded crit range and a +13 to hit (due to +3 weapon). 2 attacks will deal about 51. an ogre has 59 hp. at level 20 (so 4 attacks) but without a holy avenger (so no 2d10 radiant - but still a +3 weapon, because i am a merciful god), that's 58 damage - just barely enough to not kill the ogre.

so, uh, unless i'm missing something, then no. the bolded is false. they can typically kill one ogre in one round...if they have a holy avenger greatsword.

that might have been me - and my initial calculations assumed beefy magic items (namely the same holy avenger greatsword as this post!), and i said without those magic items things would be even worse.

You're not including action surge or feats like GWM. Also depends on what "high level" means. Take a level 15 fighter, 20 strength, +1 greatsword. They're +11 to hit, doing around 31 points of damage per round ignoring all the other things I should be adding based on subclass. I'll probably still hit 80% of the time even with a -5 to get +10 damage so it only takes 2 hits because the ogre has 59 HP. I have 3 attacks and an action surge, so 6 attacks for round 1. Yep, I likely take out 3 ogres in 1 round. Perhaps I could do one more if I used some battle master maneuvers or had pole arm master and used a halberd instead of a greatsword for that bonus action attack.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Which they have. Via multiple attacks and action surges.



At level 12 they will easily take out multiple ogres by themselves.



You mean it might take a whole 12 seconds to wipe out Bea Arthur and company?

You can always set up arbitrary standards that can't be met. But if that fighter has GWM they will be doing around 23 points of damage per hit and will likely only miss on a 1. So it will only take 2 hits to take out a CR 2 monster. They have 4 attacks, 8 with action surge so they will likely take out the main cast in 1 round. It would take 2 whole rounds if you include regularly reappearing secondary characters. That's assuming only a 20 strength and a +1 weapon, which at that level is pretty low for most campaigns.

I fail to see the issue.

Other people have shown their work, but for reference:

59 ÷ 23 = 2 strikes with a remainder of 13 damage to do

Any remainder means the creature is not dead, which means another strike is required.

Now let's advance to level 20..

8 strikes per round (at level 20 specifically!!) with action surge

Divided by 3 strikes per ogre (Unless you can get average damage >30 somehow)

Equals...

2 dead ogres with a remainder of 1.

Incidentally, this is the same number of ogres you were able to kill...9 levels ago. The only difference is that at level 20 those 2 ogres are really really dead.

But hey, maybe you land some crits and double that number...

Whoopee.

 

[Minigiant]

My alternate involves not using 4e minion rules.

Why do fans only think there's only one way to do things?

4e minion rules aren't the only option.

 

[Oofta]

Other people have shown their work, but for reference:

59 ÷ 23 = 2 strikes with a remainder of 13 damage to do

Any remainder means the creature is not dead, which means another strike is required.

Now let's advance to level 20..

8 strikes per round (at level 20 specifically!!) with action surge

Divided by 3 strikes per ogre (Unless you can get average damage >30 somehow)

Equals...

2 dead ogres with a remainder of 1.

Incidentally, this is the same number of ogres you were able to kill...9 levels ago. The only difference is that at level 20 those 2 ogres are really really dead.

But hey, maybe you land some crits and double that number...

Whoopee.

In order to make them that bad you have to ignore magical items they're likely to have at higher levels, do a build that does minimal damage, ignore action surges and subclass features. You're also focusing on only 1 aspect of the fighter, DPR which is not the total sum of the PC.

Go for it. I don't care any more.

 

[Quickleaf]

@Oofta @Gammadoodler
Tl;dr 11th level fighter can take down 2.5 ogres going all out.

Pretty grounded example: 11th level fighter (battle master) with +2 magical greatsword, Great Weapon Fighting Style, Great Weapon Master feat, and 20 Strength, using the Feinting Attack maneuver to gain Advantage (which in this case shifts 80% chance hit to 96% chance hit). You can replace the greatsword being magical with some party buffs that equate to close to the same thing (e.g. d4 Bless), so it's an assumption that covers multiple bases.

Attack Bonus (normal) = +4 (prof) +5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) -5 (feat) = +6 vs Ogre AC 11, means the fighter hits on a 5+ on d20 – in other words they have an 80% chance to hit (barring any other influences) which gets factored in damage estimates

Attack Bonus (Feinting Attack) = +4 (prof) +5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) -5 (feat) +3 Advantage = +9 vs Ogre AC 11, means the fighter hits on a 2+ on d20 – in other words they have an 96% chance to hit (barring any other influences) which gets factored in damage estimates

Attack #1 (Feinting Attack) = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) + 5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) +1d10 (superiority die) = 30.8 avg damage * 0.96 = 29.6
Attack #2 (Feinting Attack) = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) + 5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) +1d10 (superiority die) = 30.8 avg damage * 0.96 = 29.6

This could kill the 1st Ogre with 59 HP.

Attack #3 (Feinting Attack) = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) + 5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) +1d10 (superiority die) = 30.8 avg damage * 0.96 = 29.6 damage

Action Surge! Attack #4 (Feinting Attack) = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) + 5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) +1d10 (superiority die) = 30.8 avg damage * 0.96 = 29.6 damage

Again this could kill a 2nd Ogre.

However, the fighter is now out of superiority dice, so no more feinting!

Action Surge, Attack #5 = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) +5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) = 25.3 avg damage * 0.8 = 20.24
Action Surge, Attack #6 = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) +5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) = 25.3 avg damage * 0.8 = 20.24

The 3rd Ogre is likely wounded but not dead...barring other allies or terrain hazards or cool magic items.

However, the fighter has completely tapped out their 4 Superiority Dice and Action Surge to accomplish this.

 

[Gammadoodler]

You're not including action surge or feats like GWM. Also depends on what "high level" means. Take a level 15 fighter, 20 strength, +1 greatsword. They're +11 to hit, doing around 31 points of damage per round ignoring all the other things I should be adding based on subclass. I'll probably still hit 80% of the time even with a -5 to get +10 damage so it only takes 2 hits because the ogre has 59 HP. I have 3 attacks and an action surge, so 6 attacks for round 1. Yep, I likely take out 3 ogres in 1 round. Perhaps I could do one more if I used some battle master maneuvers or had pole arm master and used a halberd instead of a greatsword for that bonus action attack.

Note that at 80% to hit, there is a decent to good chance you miss one of those action surged attacks which means 1 of the 3 ogres lives. And that small variance from the average on the low side could also result in an ogre needing a third strike, which would also mean that 1 of the 3 ogres lives.

And incremental damage only really matters if you can get enough of it that you don't have to rely on the + 10 from GWM to score enough damage from some of those strikes to secure the killing blow (though it does also provide more insurance against damage variance)

And.. this is needing

1. GWM,
2. a magic greatsword,
3. action surge,
4. Level 11+
5. Possibly extensive secondary class resource expenditure

..to kill one extra instance of a creature that hasn't been a serious threat since what..level 5?

 

[Oofta]

Note that at 80% to hit, there is a decent to good chance you miss one of those action surged attacks which means 1 of the 3 ogres lives. And that small variance from the average on the low side also results in an ogre needing a third strike

And incremental damage only really matters if you can get enough of it that you don't have to rely on the + 10 from GWM to score enough damage from some of those strikes to secure the killing blow (though it does also provide more insurance against damage variance)

And.. this is needing

1. GWM,
2. a magic greatsword,
3. action surge,
4. Level 11+
5. Possibly secondary class resource expenditure

..to kill one extra instance of a creature that hasn't been a serious threat since what..level 5?

I'm not bothering with this discussion any more, it's pointless.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why do fans only think there's only one way to do things?

4e minion rules aren't the only option.

Agreed. I prefer something akin to TSRs cleave rules for fighters, where you just keep chopping into the little guys so long as you keep dropping 'em.

The thing is, ogres are big hulking brutes, and I see no reason why that should change. So I'm fine with no level of fighter slaughtering them by the score in a single round with a sword.

 

[Gammadoodler]

In order to make them that bad you have to ignore magical items they're likely to have at higher levels, do a build that does minimal damage, ignore action surges and subclass features. You're also focusing on only 1 aspect of the fighter, DPR which is not the total sum of the PC.

Go for it. I don't care any more.

This was your scenario..not mine. You said that a Fighter can hack a bunch of ogres to bits. You haven't shown your work

I used monster hp.
I used..your..estimated damage.
I included action surge.

If you have something specific I should have added, I'd love for you to provide it. To get close to your assertion, you need to account for an additional 6-7 points of damage per attack that can be applied to every attack.

 

[Gammadoodler]

@Oofta @Gammadoodler
Tl;dr 11th level fighter can take down 2.5 ogres going all out.

Pretty grounded example: 11th level fighter (battle master) with +2 magical greatsword, Great Weapon Fighting Style, Great Weapon Master feat, and 20 Strength, using the Feinting Attack maneuver to gain Advantage (which in this case shifts 80% chance hit to 96% chance hit). You can replace the greatsword being magical with some party buffs that equate to close to the same thing (e.g. d4 Bless), so it's an assumption that covers multiple bases.

Attack Bonus (normal) = +4 (prof) +5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) -5 (feat) = +6 vs Ogre AC 11, means the fighter hits on a 5+ on d20 – in other words they have an 80% chance to hit (barring any other influences) which gets factored in damage estimates

Attack Bonus (Feinting Attack) = +4 (prof) +5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) -5 (feat) +3 Advantage = +9 vs Ogre AC 11, means the fighter hits on a 2+ on d20 – in other words they have an 96% chance to hit (barring any other influences) which gets factored in damage estimates

Attack #1 (Feinting Attack) = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) + 5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) +1d10 (superiority die) = 30.8 avg damage * 0.96 = 29.6
Attack #2 (Feinting Attack) = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) + 5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) +1d10 (superiority die) = 30.8 avg damage * 0.96 = 29.6

This could kill the 1st Ogre with 59 HP.

Attack #3 (Feinting Attack) = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) + 5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) +1d10 (superiority die) = 30.8 avg damage * 0.96 = 29.6 damage

Action Surge! Attack #4 (Feinting Attack) = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) + 5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) +1d10 (superiority die) = 30.8 avg damage * 0.96 = 29.6 damage

Again this could kill a 2nd Ogre.

However, the fighter is now out of superiority dice, so no more feinting!

Action Surge, Attack #5 = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) +5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) = 25.3 avg damage * 0.8 = 20.24
Action Surge, Attack #6 = 2d6 + 1.3 (great weapon fighting style) +5 (strength) +2 (magic sword) +10 (feat) = 25.3 avg damage * 0.8 = 20.24

The 3rd Ogre is likely wounded but not dead...barring other allies or terrain hazards or cool magic items.

However, the fighter has completely tapped out their 4 Superiority Dice and Action Surge to accomplish this.

Thank you for doing the real math I was too lazy to do.

Seems like I wasn't far off with my lazy calcs at least.