Are Superhero films dying?

[Ruin Explorer]

It's just a firehose of content. And the quality has suffered because of the need to make so many shows and movies at the same time. -The VFX has suffered. The shows exist in some kind of bizarre space- not really TV shows (most don't have a second season), and not really movies either. The stories have suffered- you have "old" characters in completely inessential shows (Secret Invasion), and new characters in great shows that just end (Ms. Marvel) and make you wonder why you took the time to invest in such a great show to begin with ... because it's not a show.

I think this is what it comes down to. Not so much that they made too much content, and burned us out, because it the rush to make a huge amount of content, they absolutely let the quality slip.

Not just of CGI/VFX either. Absolutely that's part of it - and a very clear and unarguable part - it's easy to see how mediocre-to-bad the CGI/VFX etc is in various recent Marvel movies. But more than that we've seen quality slip in other ways - whether they're as simple as not properly getting the scenes at the right level of brightness (Wakanda Forever), bad editing and reshoots - often with a confused storyline (Falcon and the Winter Soldier), weird tonal issues and rushed scenes/plot (Ms Marvel), or just outright bad shows concept-to-execution (Secret Invasion). The quality of all aspects of MCU stuff seems to have suffered. This even extends to who is being selected to write and direct movies and shows to some extent. We've seen an awful lot of directors lined up (and in some cases used) who have never directed an action project (or in some cases, never directed a good movie, or a non-animated movie), a lot of writers who are basically on their first serious project but are the main writer and so on. I think there's a bit of trying to cheap-out and have people who are controllable here. There have also been some strange diversity attitudes where instead of getting a diverse director who has a ton of experience and skill - of which there are no shortage whatsoever worldwide (I can't emphasize that enough), they prefer less experienced directors and often ones with no relevant genre experience - which tells me "controllable and cheap" are primary and any diversity is secondary for Marvel.

 

[nevin]

I think the issue is pretty simple. IMO.

It's another replay of the old, "Goose that laid the golden eggs." To put it simply- Disney used to understand that proper brand management also meant scarcity. Too much of a good thing can ruin it. And that's what we've gotten.

During the Infinity Wars saga, you would get two movies a year. You would only get three movies if there was an additional Spiderman movie (done with Sony). That's it. Each movie was a big event.

But now?
2021- Four movies.
2022- Three movies.
2023- Three movies.
2024- Three movies.

In addition the upping the amount of content in terms of movies, they have also, at the same time, ensured that there is a firehose of content on Disney+.

2021- Five shows (counting What If?).
2022- Three shows.
2023- Two shows.

In addition, they've tied the shows into the MCU. So if you're "into" Marvel, it starts to feel like homework. And if you don't watch the shows, then you feel like you're missing things. Also? If you are "into" Marvel, you know that the movies will be on streaming soon, lessening your desire to see the movie in the theater.

It's just a firehose of content. And the quality has suffered because of the need to make so many shows and movies at the same time. -The VFX has suffered. The shows exist in some kind of bizarre space- not really TV shows (most don't have a second season), and not really movies either. The stories have suffered- you have "old" characters in completely inessential shows (Secret Invasion), and new characters in great shows that just end (Ms. Marvel) and make you wonder why you took the time to invest in such a great show to begin with ... because it's not a show.

Moreover, the MCU has lost the "event" feeling. I genuinely like two of the three characters in the Marvels. But the movie is barely a blip on my radar, because it's just another marker in the firehose of content. I'll probably watch it at some point on streaming, but I don't feel the need to see it in the theater.

TLDR; the MCU has suffered because they made too much, too quickly, and now it no longer feels as special as it once did.

and add one thing. Streaming was supposed to replace television shows but now they are little "movie" shows with big movie budgets instead of lower priced fair that the studio's can afford to pump out of the fire hose. Streaming vs old school television is the difference between pumping champagne out of the fire hose instead of water for the filler that is supposed to handle the day to day boredom.

Nothing about what has been happening is sustainable when it comes to Modern Movie IP powerhouses and thier strategy for supplying entertainment. Sometimes people Just want the A-Team , M.A.S.H, or old school Dr Who not the big movie budget but only a few episodes every two years.

 

[Ryujin]

On Hallowe'en I decided that I would rewatch "Werewolf By Night." When I brought up Disney+ I noticed that they had posted a colourized version, so I gave that a shot. I think that it actively took away from the feel of the film, as presented in the original black&white. I'm guessing that they put it up there for the folks who didn't want to watch the original, to try and bring more eyes to it.

 

[Thomas Shey]

And again, I'm reminded that people obviously watch different versions of the same shows and movies than I do (as an example, in Ruin Explorer's post above, I think I found significant problems in exactly one of the four properties he mentions).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

And again, I'm reminded that people obviously watch different versions of the same shows and movies than I do (as an example, in Ruin Explorer's post above, I think I found significant problems in exactly one of the four properties he mentions).

What's inevitable is some people have much lower and higher thresholds for noticing what's wrong. At the extremes, some people are the princess and the pea, and other people are impaled and dying bloodily on punji sticks and going "What? Feels fine to me! I guess I'm just made of tougher stuff!". And sometimes people will easily notice technical glitches or continuity issues, but be completely deaf to utterly terrible and laughable dialogue, wooden performances, and so on, whereas others will be very aware of issues with performances or writing, but either don't notice or don't care about terrible VFX or costumes or the like. I mean, I've seen people defend truly indefensible costumes that looked like a very bad day at Comic Con as if they were The Starry Night.

On top of all this is a nerd speciality, which is to say programs which are really bad are "fine, actually!" or even good, purely because of the subject matter. I'm not saying I'm completely immune to this, I'm not sure anyone with nerdy interests is truly immune to this. There are absolutely people who will watch terrible Marvel shows and say they're okay, just because they're a Marvel show, and they want a Marvel show. I don't and couldn't know what proportion of people this is, but it's enough to muddy the waters on the quality of any Marvel or Star Wars show (weirdly less so with Trek for whatever reason).

(To be clear this latter group does have an antithesis - there are equally people who will always take a dump on SF and fantasy, regardless of how good it is. Some of them even work at the NYT! So it's not a one-way street.)

Of the properties I listed, the problems were variable in impact, but all evidence of rushing products and pushing budgets. Like, with Wakanda Forever, if you watched it in certain cinemas, the overdark scenes weren't really an issue, and Disney actually corrected it by the time it reached D+ if I remember correctly - and those scenes are a small minority of the movie. Its real problems stemmed from trying to be two different movies and only succeeding at one of them, but that's a different discussion and not related to rushing I think. Ms Marvel succeeded in being a pretty show despite some really cut-off plots and some tonal whiplash (from the good guys stabbing multiple baddies to death to other good guys fighting the police with implausible/zero verisimilitude Home Alone-style shenanigans in what, two episodes? Jesus). Falcon and the Winter Soldier though was a huge mess writing, plot and tone-wise, and tried way too hard to set up Secret Invasion, which I'm not even going to start on. If you didn't notice anything off with either, well, I guess you're "made of tougher stuff".

 

[nevin]

which tells me "controllable and cheap" are primary and any diversity is secondary for Marvel.

Well when Cheap is 160 million dollars everyone gets stingy. As I said too much money flowing into everything streaming and movie related h is breaking hollywood.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Well when Cheap is 160 million dollars everyone gets stingy. As I said too much money flowing into everything streaming and movie related h is breaking hollywood.

There are places to cut, and places not to cut, and the director is a place not to cut, imho.

I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced re: the "too much money" argument.

It looks a lot more like too much haste to me.

Like, Apple+ has a much higher per show hit-rate and much lower number of original shows than Netflix. I don't think that's because Netflix has too much money, I think it's because they've been racing ahead to try and make the next big thing. It's very hard to explain how something like the live-action Cowboy Bebop, a production that screamed "utter disaster" from casting onwards (sorry John Cho I love you in most things but you are not a 6'1" skinny 30-nothing guy who is an expert at martial arts and gun fu, nor, apparently, are you Keanu-like enough that you can make that not matter) got made if it wasn't for the scattershot and aggressive approach that Netflix has to creating and cancelling shows. It's also kind of hard to explain, if we're saying "too much money", why Altered Carbon S1 cost a bazillion dollars and looked it, and S2 looked like it had far more in common with very low budget Canadian SF shows that the first season.

 

[nevin]

It's not just netflix or apple+ (who to be fair along with paramount+ have avoided the crazy money means nothing strategy). The amount of money being pumped into all media, streaming services, movies, to make stuff that the TV studio's would never make because they'd never generate enough profit after the special affects budget etc that have been getting greenlit can't continue.
but adding apple to the conversation about netflix is like adding the Local gas station to the conversation about Walmart. Apple+ is a tiny streaming service. But unlike most of the others a profitable one.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

but adding apple to the conversation about netflix is like adding the Local gas station to the conversation about Walmart.

No lol.

 

[nevin]

No lol.

The analyst estimates that Apple TV+ accounts for just 2% of Apple's services revenue, and that the streaming service had revenue of $1.5 billion in calendar 2022, growing to $2.2 billion in 2023.
As of November 2023 Netflix has a market cap of $189.23 Billion.